New NOE 360-310 FN "The 35 Thumper"
- Thread starter yodogsandman
- Start date
Ian
Notorious member
2 MOA at 100 yards, reliably, regardless of bore condition or which shot in the string, is meat in the freezer. I've been surprised over the years that a lot of factory rifles shooting factory ammunition barely shoot that well, many worse. It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian...unless you're talking ground hogs, squirrels, or head shots at long range and really NEED pinpoint accuracy. This all coming from a cast bullet accuracy snob, BTW, and I hunted for years with a .30-'06 that gave me 1.5 MOA ten-shot groups with Lee 185-grainers no matter the conditions. I used to practice field positions with it, just going out for a jog with the rifle and stopping to shoot ten on paper at 50 or 80 yards, got pretty confident with it even though it wasn't exactly a tack driver.
35 shooter
Well-Known Member
Yodog i totally understand wanting better. LOL if i get 2" i want to see if i can get 1" etc. etc. Your bullet has done well though with 4 different powder charge levels and 2 different seating depths so far.
It sure seems to be a stable design and i for one am impressed with what you are getting out of it right off the bat like this.
10 shot groups under 2" @ 100 yds. with a hunting rifle is nothing to sneeze at and you've already done it twice with 2 different loads and 1 powder so far. If you were going hunting tommorrow there's no doubt about the field results.
Of course knowing you, you'll have it a lot better before it's over lol!
I need another 35 cal. mould like i need a hole in my head but this one sure is looking good to me.
It sure seems to be a stable design and i for one am impressed with what you are getting out of it right off the bat like this.
10 shot groups under 2" @ 100 yds. with a hunting rifle is nothing to sneeze at and you've already done it twice with 2 different loads and 1 powder so far. If you were going hunting tommorrow there's no doubt about the field results.
Of course knowing you, you'll have it a lot better before it's over lol!
I need another 35 cal. mould like i need a hole in my head but this one sure is looking good to me.
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
With the 3 day Columbus Day weekend, I was able to get another range trip in (trip #3). The only change was increasing the powder charges to 52.0gr and 53.0gr IMR 4831.
I can't explain the bottom flyer on the first target (52.0gr) other than it felt like something moved on the front rest as the shot broke. That shot opened the group up to 2.405". This was the second volley of 5 shots with a cold barrel and I had slid the rifle back and forth in the bags before this shot.
The second target shows horizontal stringing. It could be good omen or bad....
Attached Thumbnails
I can't explain the bottom flyer on the first target (52.0gr) other than it felt like something moved on the front rest as the shot broke. That shot opened the group up to 2.405". This was the second volley of 5 shots with a cold barrel and I had slid the rifle back and forth in the bags before this shot.
The second target shows horizontal stringing. It could be good omen or bad....
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
One thing I forgot to mention, the bullet is being scraped on the bottom while loading from the magazine. That might explain some of the dispersion.
I might even want to weight sort my bullets some time in the near future.
Ian, I'll fool with the seating depth but, I'd like to see what happens by just adding more powder first. Good or bad, that next grain of powder might show me a lot. Once that case is filled up and maxed out, I'll go back to the best group and change the seating depths from there. I don't want to miss anything I could learn from. Until then, single loading will keep that scrape from happening. I know Ian... I know that your way would be faster to get to the same probable end and if it was shooting worse, that would have been my plan, too. It feels close to something good.
I might even want to weight sort my bullets some time in the near future.
Ian, I'll fool with the seating depth but, I'd like to see what happens by just adding more powder first. Good or bad, that next grain of powder might show me a lot. Once that case is filled up and maxed out, I'll go back to the best group and change the seating depths from there. I don't want to miss anything I could learn from. Until then, single loading will keep that scrape from happening. I know Ian... I know that your way would be faster to get to the same probable end and if it was shooting worse, that would have been my plan, too. It feels close to something good.
Ian
Notorious member
I'm not sure you have enough headroom to find the next accuracy node. That horizontal means it's fading at 53 grains. Then you have to push past the horizontal stringing, past the scattergun group, past the vertical string, and finally back to a tight group again....maybe. It think you hit the sweet spot for the powder already which is why I suggested leaving the powder workup for a bit and checking to make sure the other contributing factors (seating depth, neck tension, primer brand, etc.) are optimized before chasing the magic powder charge some more. I could be wrong though, won't be the first time.
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
You're right. I had expected (hoped) the perfect powder charge to be between 54 and 55 grains, about one grain short of 100% loading density.
Ian
Notorious member
And you might still find it there. You can see how much difference in POI and group shape just one grain made. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just making a suggestion of what I might do which is try to see what was causing those flyers, THEN go back and do a detailed workup of the powder charge. Generally, when working up the charge weights and suddenly the group forms a straight line, that means you're close and the powder you chose is probably going to work for your system with a very small tweak up or back down. I saw that line and got excited!
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that line got me excited too! How do you feel about testing with just 5 rounds for each seating depth in .005" increments? I would want to work backwards from the 3.250" length to get away from the maximum magazine length that's causing the scraping now.
I've been using the same 20 cases for testing so far. They're from a larger case lot. They have now caught up to another 30 cases that had been fired 24 times. So, I can now proceed with 50 cases and I can try more things during each range trip.
I sure wish I'd brought the Chrony yesterday to see how close I am to the expected max velocity for this bullet in my rifle. There was only one other shooter there at the range.
I've been using the same 20 cases for testing so far. They're from a larger case lot. They have now caught up to another 30 cases that had been fired 24 times. So, I can now proceed with 50 cases and I can try more things during each range trip.
I sure wish I'd brought the Chrony yesterday to see how close I am to the expected max velocity for this bullet in my rifle. There was only one other shooter there at the range.
35 shooter
Well-Known Member
Just me but i like testing in 5 shot groups to start. Once i find the most accurate loads i'll try the ten shot groups and fine tune from there if need be.
I know 5 shot groups can "lie" but i have found the tightest ones, especially if they repeat, "usually" hold up in the end when i start the ten shot groups.
Saves a bit of time and componets too when i'm working several powders and loads at the same time, which i'm bad about doing...forces me to keep good records as it's an hour one way to the range for me now.
I know 5 shot groups can "lie" but i have found the tightest ones, especially if they repeat, "usually" hold up in the end when i start the ten shot groups.
Saves a bit of time and componets too when i'm working several powders and loads at the same time, which i'm bad about doing...forces me to keep good records as it's an hour one way to the range for me now.
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
Range report #4. I brought my chronograph but, didn't bother to set it up because of the strong winds. I increased the powder charges to 54.0gr and 55.0gr IMR 4831. Cheating a little bit, I weighed bullets to +/- 0.5gr before giving them 3 coats of BLL. About one in five was either above or below the mean weight of 313.5gr with GC's installed Cases used for the 55.0gr load were not trimmed like the others and ran from 2.472"-2.483". I'll trim them before loading those up again.
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Winds were strong and gusty today from 10-20 MPH. I had to use two 1 1/2" roofing nails, top and bottom, to hold the targets down and that wasn't enough at times. The bull pines were even swaying! The first target blew down after the first volley of 5 rounds and when I set it back up, got it upside down without noticing. I shot at it without changing it anyway because of the other shooters and it's already large size group. By the end, the 55.0gr target lost the bottom roofing nail and I had to shoot when it wasn't flapping. Notice that at 53.0gr the group was enlarged and mostly horizontal and at 54.0gr it was enlarged and almost vertical. 55.0gr seemed to want to go back together in a tight group but, with this wind, who knows. I still have room in the case for one or two more grains of IMR4831 powder. No pressure signs at all but, I noticed that the case mouths are no longer as sooty as before.
The 54.0gr groups, when put together would probably be about 4". The 55.0gr group was 2.490".
Looks like it's time to adjust the scope setting, the next groups could fall off the target.
Attached Thumbnails
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Winds were strong and gusty today from 10-20 MPH. I had to use two 1 1/2" roofing nails, top and bottom, to hold the targets down and that wasn't enough at times. The bull pines were even swaying! The first target blew down after the first volley of 5 rounds and when I set it back up, got it upside down without noticing. I shot at it without changing it anyway because of the other shooters and it's already large size group. By the end, the 55.0gr target lost the bottom roofing nail and I had to shoot when it wasn't flapping. Notice that at 53.0gr the group was enlarged and mostly horizontal and at 54.0gr it was enlarged and almost vertical. 55.0gr seemed to want to go back together in a tight group but, with this wind, who knows. I still have room in the case for one or two more grains of IMR4831 powder. No pressure signs at all but, I noticed that the case mouths are no longer as sooty as before.
The 54.0gr groups, when put together would probably be about 4". The 55.0gr group was 2.490".
Looks like it's time to adjust the scope setting, the next groups could fall off the target.
35 shooter
Well-Known Member
That 55 gr. load looks pretty darn good. Just one shot a little to the right and you said the wind was blowing hard.
I would shoot that load again under better conditions for sure.
I would shoot that load again under better conditions for sure.
Ian
Notorious member
Well, now you know! Hard to say for certain with the wind and relatively small sampling, but it does appear you may have worked through the full range of nodes. I didn't know your necks were sooty from the other loads, that being the case I'd definitely stick with 55 grains and do some fine-tuning. That's a pretty dramatic change in POI, too.
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
I'm thinking that the reduction in the case neck soot could mean that its passed the 40,000 CUP mark. Still some unburned powder kernels in the barrel, too. I also reduced the O.A.L. on the 55.0gr load by .005" (just came out that way). So, might be good things ahead with some O.A.L. tests. Some say .010" off the lands, some .015", some say a little more for best accuracy. I think the nose is still touching the lands by about .010".
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
Range report #5. Increased the powder to 56.0gr IMR4831 and changed O.A.L.'s to "tune" barrel harmonics using the bullet jump in the barrel. So, shot 5 rounds of 56.0gr loads with O.A.L.'s from 3.230" down to 3.200" in .010" increments.
Conditions today were just a little better than last week. 54*F, cloudy, 10 MPH winds with 15 MPH gusts. This was after the end of a storm that came through last night. When I uncased my rifles at the range, they immediately became covered with condensation.
The edges of the fired primers are still very rounded but, noticed that they have changed and look a little more flattened. There was barely any movement of powder kernels with 56.0gr when the O.A.L. used was 3.200", when shaking the finished round next to my ear.
I hooked up the chronograph today and velocities are not as fast as I thought. This is for the 10 shot string using 56.0gr IMR4831 at 3.240" O.A.L. ....
Av Velocity....2041 FPS
ES................40
SD................11
Here is the photo from the first 56.0gr IMR4831, 10 shot group (2.745") at 100 yards with an O.A.L. of 3.240". The next is a 5 shot 100 yard group (1.020") with an O.A.L. of 3.200". I didn't bother with photos of the 3.230", 3.220" or 3.210" O.A.L.'s because there was nothing special about them.
3.230".....2.090" group
3.220".....2.515" group
3.210".....2.790" group
Attached Thumbnails
Conditions today were just a little better than last week. 54*F, cloudy, 10 MPH winds with 15 MPH gusts. This was after the end of a storm that came through last night. When I uncased my rifles at the range, they immediately became covered with condensation.
The edges of the fired primers are still very rounded but, noticed that they have changed and look a little more flattened. There was barely any movement of powder kernels with 56.0gr when the O.A.L. used was 3.200", when shaking the finished round next to my ear.
I hooked up the chronograph today and velocities are not as fast as I thought. This is for the 10 shot string using 56.0gr IMR4831 at 3.240" O.A.L. ....
Av Velocity....2041 FPS
ES................40
SD................11
Here is the photo from the first 56.0gr IMR4831, 10 shot group (2.745") at 100 yards with an O.A.L. of 3.240". The next is a 5 shot 100 yard group (1.020") with an O.A.L. of 3.200". I didn't bother with photos of the 3.230", 3.220" or 3.210" O.A.L.'s because there was nothing special about them.
3.230".....2.090" group
3.220".....2.515" group
3.210".....2.790" group
35 shooter
Well-Known Member
Still barely touching the rifling? I Bet that holds up for you as it is looking VERY good right there!!! Nice!
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
Thanks, you know, I forgot to check the rifling engagement. I racked out the first round too, just to check for scraping.
I'll try .005" on either side of 3.200" and also 3.200" again with 10 shot groups.
I'll try .005" on either side of 3.200" and also 3.200" again with 10 shot groups.
35 shooter
Well-Known Member
I got around to making a dummy round tonight for your new "Thumper" bullet for my 35 whelen.
I usually start with light engagement on the lands. I wound up at 3.200" with about 1/16" engagement with the lands and very close to the top end of the crimp groove....very impressive looking round.
Looking forward to trying some imr 4350 with it. There is still good room to seat deeper and keep the gc in the neck if need be.
Looks like we're rained out here for a few days, but i'll get some loaded and ready to go!!
I usually start with light engagement on the lands. I wound up at 3.200" with about 1/16" engagement with the lands and very close to the top end of the crimp groove....very impressive looking round.
Looking forward to trying some imr 4350 with it. There is still good room to seat deeper and keep the gc in the neck if need be.
Looks like we're rained out here for a few days, but i'll get some loaded and ready to go!!
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
Glad to hear that it fits your chamber and throat so well, too. I hoped it would fit any modern SAAMI 35 Whelen chambers real good. The older wildcat 35 Whelen rifles were all over the place chamber wise and there's just no way to fit them all.
FWIW, penetration on game should be great, sectional density is .342, the same as a .457" 500gr bullet.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc...bw=310&bd=.360
FWIW, penetration on game should be great, sectional density is .342, the same as a .457" 500gr bullet.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc...bw=310&bd=.360