New to me 58 Muzzle Loader

[oscarflytyer]

New to me 58 Muzzle Loader - Picked up today. Not sure what brand. All I know is, made in Italy, and a big block capital I in a square. Looks like it has never been fired. Has set triggers. Not familiar with the 58. I have 2 lbs of Elephant FFg (was free) and plenty of pure lead. Have a .575 Lee mold inbound. Guess I'll figure it out. Maybe a BP freezer deer this year! Never taken one with a ML.

Going to shoot the simple RB. Figure 80 grns of powder. Won't shoot past 50 yds in my woods. If anyone has a better accuracy load, I am all ears.

 

[Ian]

You'll have to figure your own accuracy load. Elephant is weak powder. I'd start at 60 grains and work up five or so grains volume at a time until groups come together. You want a tight patch/ball combination for best accuracy and to figure out what you're going to use for patch lube during hunting weather.

 

[JustJim]

I've taken elk/mule deer/whitetails/pronghorn/javelina with a 24 gauge (.58 cal) flintlock, loaded with a patched .570" ball sitting on 80 gr. of Elephant FFg. Especially with the range limitation you mentioned, if that load is accurate enough in your rifle I probably wouldn't spend too much time searching for a better load.

 

[Missionary]

ML's are like all other rifles. There is no one load best for all. Your barrel may be shallow groove or very deep... ? Military musket or Hawken ?

We have had a .58 Zuoave (repro) CW type musket for 45 years. 32 " barrel.
Our's came with a #11 nipple mounted and a musket nipple in the patch box. The Musket Cap is the large one with bent out side tabs making it look like a hat. produces a good strong ignition. Then #11 caps are smaller and each factory has their own "strength factor".
But for 50 yards and thwaping corn crunchers it won't matter alot.
Our .58 has mashed 30+ bean eaters over the years. A .575 or .57 RB cast of pure or range scrap will go complete deer penetration from ever angle we have hit them. Never took a "grill door" shot. But will go through two large doe chests standing side by side.
80-85 grains 2F Goex is our hunting load. .575 with a thin patch (T shirt) or .570 thicker patch (pillow or flannel) works well in our shallow groove barrel. Your barrel again is going to be a bit different but you will learn what is the best.
Put that soft RB through the shoulders and no tracking will be needed. Carry a .22 pistol for a pop through the brain to finish the job fast. The .58 ball through the skull will make a big mess. Chest shots from any angle are very effective but we have seen deer go 50+yards with the heart ripped in half. Spine shots at the front half will drop them there. A finisher through the brain is quicker.
You can also thick patch a .53 Ball. Shoots very good out of our .58's. May need canvas, leather to patch but it gets the job done.

But there is no critter east of Ol Muddy you will need to fear. Buffalo were / are yet popped with .58's. I would hunt anything with our double flintlock .60 smooth bore with .58 balls.

 

[Rick H]

Half the fun of using a muzzleloader is finding "Your" load. It is a whole new world of reloading where the barrel itself is the "cartridge". You won't have to worry about brass prep but there are a whole world of other variables to keep you busy. Enjoy the process.

 

[oscarflytyer]

I do see that Elephant is weaker. Mine is either Elephant, or GOEX. Can't remember w/o looking. The 80-85 grn with RB seems to be the general sweet spot. And like Missionary states, I don't want to track them/I am a thru shoulder shooter, regardless of what I am shooting at. The little Southern whitetails don't get to eat corn and are the skinnier for it. Never had enough meat out of a front shoulder to make it worth the while, so using it as the target is an easy choice.

I did figure out what it is. Basic Hawken. Late night research shows that it is an Investarms made in Italy. 58 cal. Italian date code AC = 1977. Curved brass butt. Brass patch box. Double set triggers. Does not appear ever fired! Looks like shallow rifling. Has star over PN proof = Gardone and Brescia BP proof. Also has star over crossed rifles and shield proof = Proof House Gardone Val Trompia - Brescia. Investarms made the Lymans back in the day. Looking at this one, you would automatically think it was a Lyman.

 

[Jeff H]

I had a H&R Huntsman (threaded breech) for a time in .58. I'd probably still have it if it had been a .50 or .54, but that's more about my miserly bent regarding lead and powder than anything. Other than that, I have a lot of respect for the .58.

My Lyman Great Plains weighs 10.25# with the 3/8", solid brass ramrod in place, and with 90 grains of P'dex and a .495" ball, it's not too abusive. I've shot twenty or more rounds in a string before - comfortably.

I never weighed the Huntsman, but it was a fair bit lighter. I will say that there is a noticeable difference in the shove you get between a 50 cal ball and a 58 cal ball, but it was still not abusive, but I doubt I'd shoot it nearly as much as I did the Lyman in .50. Sold it to a friend who scoped it and fired his first shot from a bench and ended up on the ground with blood running down his forehead. He's a bit of a pain and injury magnet though.

 

[Jeff H]

...Late night research shows that it is an Investarms made in Italy. 58 cal. Italian date code AC = 1977....

I always thought those were really nice rifles and very good-looking. I wanted one, but ended up getting the Lyman in .50 in '86 or '87, in kit form for $247.00. I wanted it brown, not blue. I put a lot of time into it and it came out very nicely and shoots very well too. When I was shooting it regularly (twice a month), I could keep three consecutive shots in 2.5" at 60 yards - off-hand. That 10.25# dampens a lot of body movement, but also fatigues one a bit after three shots. Took two deer with it at 112 and 125 yards/iron sights, patched round ball, through and through penetration and dead deer right quick. Not that I could do any of that today, but the rifle till can.

If yours and my Lyman were made by the same company (I THINK they were), you have a really nice rifle!

For some reason you photos of this rifle aren't showing up for me...

 

[Maven]

All, Investarms made rifles for Lyman (Trade Gun, Great Plains Rifle) and others. Lyman and others were importers. However, this doesn't answer the question Oscarft asked about who produced his rifle. Btw, Investarms rifles are excellent, i.e., well made until recently so I hear, with accurate barrels.

 

[Jeff H]

@Maven ,

"...Late night research shows that it is an Investarms made in Italy..." per Oscarft's last post.

EDITED...

I thought, but now doubt, that Investarm also sold rifles under their own name. I take your post to mean that we don't know who imported it/sold it under an importer's name. Is that correct?

 

[Brad]

My only .58 is a Parker Hale 2 band Enfield. Man does it shoot well, won many competitions with it. One deer fell to a 500 gr modified RCBS mini. I had a flat bottom base pin made, added 30 gr of weight but it gave far fewer cavities due to shrinkage.

 

[300BLK]

I did figure out what it is. Basic Hawken. Late night research shows that it is an Investarms made in Italy. 58 cal. Italian date code AC = 1977. Curved brass butt. Brass patch box. Double set triggers. Does not appear ever fired! Looks like shallow rifling. Has star over PN proof = Gardone and Brescia BP proof. Also has star over crossed rifles and shield proof = Proof House Gardone Val Trompia - Brescia. Investarms made the Lymans back in the day. Looking at this one, you would automatically think it was a Lyman.

The only ".58 Hawken" that I recall from that time would have been sold by Navy Arms. .45s that had been popular were being replaced by .50s, and even a .54 was a "big bore" at that time. Val Forgett of Navy Arms had used .58s for hunting years earlier. A Gun Digest from '76 or '77 should tell the tale of who was importing .58s.

 

[Jeff H]

The only ".58 Hawken" that I recall from that time would have been sold by Navy Arms. .45s that had been popular were being replaced by .50s, and even a .54 was a "big bore" at that time. Val Forgett of Navy Arms had used .58s for hunting years earlier. A Gun Digest from '76 or '77 should tell the tale of who was importing .58s.

A few companies carried those Navy Arms .58s in the mid-eighties, when I was shopping for mine. I can't remember if Dixie Gun Works did, but I about wore out two of their catalogs over the course of a couple years, but I had someone else's full-color catalog (MUCH smaller than DGW's) with the Investarm rifle I was considering in .50 or .54. It had the same parts (lock, bolster, sights, etc.) as the Lyman Great Plains, but the stock and furniture looked a lot more like the TC Hawken, not more closely mimicking the original look like the Great Plains. The .58 model they showed had a rubber recoil pad and checkering on the fore-end.

Investarm still has both versions of their Hawken (plus some), but no .58 - the one that looked more like a TC and the one that is a dead-ringer for Lyman's offering. No idea if anyone is importing any of them at the moment. The inline craze really pushed the traditional stuff out of the market and, yes, that still irritates me.

Muzzle Loading Rifles Investarm

Reproductions of black powder muzzleloader rifles and pistols. Flintlock and percussion rifles accurately made in the traditional way.

www.investarm.com

Regardless of who imported this rifle, it should be a solid piece of equipment. Not to bash CVA's old side-locks, because I liked them too, but the Investarm was several grades above them in quality. I remember buying CVA rifle kits for $75 and $100 and with so me extra care, put together some very accurate .50s and .54s, which looked and shot MUCH better than the factory-finished ones.

 

[Missionary]

Our .58 Zuoave is marked Navy Arms. Trying to talk our AZ son into popping his next elk with it. But he lives by a 30-06 with 180 grainers.
He looks at me and says, Dad that is what you taught us.

 

[Jeff H]

@oscarflytyer , what's your twist rate?

When I got mine, the Great Plains was 1:66" and the Trade Rifle was 1:48", but a trend developed to standardize on the faster "universal" twist.

Looks like Investarm offers both currently, but who knows if anyone importing them would bother with the 1:66"? TC used 1:48", but either they or Green Mountain offered a longer 1:66" and my dad bought one for his .54 Renegade after seeing my Lyman shoot RBs.

In my limited personal opinion, if you're shooting deer, a half-inch round ball is more than sufficient. Boost that to .58 and I don't see any need to abuse yourself or your lead supply with conicals.

Aside from the aesthetic of the closer resemblance to an original Hawken, a few reasons I chose the Investarm (Lyman) was that the thimbles were soldered to the rib and the rib was soldered to the barrel. No screws to come loose, no rust forming between the parts, all steel. Those thimbles are in no danger of being crushed or pinched, locking your ramrod in or out. The bolster was cast as one piece with the breech-plug too. Double barrel tenons dovetailed in, robust sights and a modern, but robust lock which was very tunable, all steel furniture,...

I know, sounds almost paranoid, but I had just spent over six years in the Army (half of it in the Infantry) and learned that Murphy isn't singular. Murphy is an ARMY of Murphies, each with 24 fingers, follows Infantrymen around in the field and sticks those troublesome little fingers into EVERYTHING.

EDIT:
If your rifle didn't come with a manual, here it is:
file:///C:/Users/Jeff/Downloads/manual_muzzle-loading(1).pdf

Unfortunately, no parts diagrams, bet there is load data.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I have wanted a T/C 58 Big Boar and a 32/36 Cherokee since I knew of/they came out. I have had a couple chances. But never bought one. I have a few muzzle loaders and never use them. Even my inlines only see use because it extends my hunting season and tags.

CW

 

[Jeff H]

Yeah, I miss TC.

They were not "authentic" to the purists' tastes, but they did hold a lot of lines seen in a lot of less known "plains rifles" I've seen examples and pics of. Stout, very well made and not terribly expensive.

I wanted a Seneca forever and never got one. I'd hoped to find it in .36 cal, or buy a barrel for it in .36. I think a .45 might have made a dandy, light and compact deer rifle for someone who had patience and knew how to hunt as well. Such a little cutie.

When they came out with the New Englander, I think they really hit the apex on side-lock practicality. I looked at those hard before finally coming down on the more traditional aesthetic of the Lyman and my aim was to have ONE, shot ONLY that ONE and get VERY good with it. That worked for a while.

I'm probably going to put my muzzle-loader up for sale though. Time... It's not getting better and if I can't relax and shoot it well, it's not worth loading and cleaning it. It was the most enjoyable and relaxing recreational thing I ever did.

 

[oscarflytyer]

No clue the importer on this one. And pre-import mark stamps. I have seen where they were made for (possibly) Lyman, but would expect Lyman name on it if so, and Cabelas (no clue if named or not), as well as Dixie Gun Works. I used to dog ear those DGW catalogs too! If they didn't mark their rifles, this one might have come from there.

It came out the estate of a shooter. One other gun I saw from it is a Gen 1/Ver 1 Contender in 22 Hornet. Very old model/very nice shape (as is this rifle. As I said, I really don't think this one has ever been fired. I have always wanted to take a deer with a ML and this one will go to the woods this year

 

[Rushcreek]

I’ve only killed one deer with my .54 Investarm/Lyman Plains Pistol but I’ll never forget it. 42 feet away facing me, the round ball hit center chest and set the 8 point down on his butt!
So exciting.

 

[oscarflytyer]

so... pics. the three pic is my 1860 Uberti Army/Kid's gifted White Mtn 50 Carbine and my (patch box) new to me 58. Others are of the 58.