New to me 58 Muzzle Loader

Jeff H

NW Ohio
OH! Yes, Sir! You have yourself one very fine rifle there! Compact, robust, the very definition of the perfect "plains rifle" in my mind*.

Looks like a TC New Englander too? "White Mountain" does not ring a bell for me, but that's not unusual. My bell's been rung enough times that sometimes information gets lost in a crease.

*There isn't a really solid definition of a "plains rifle," but that one pushes a lot of the right buttons and pulls a lot of the right levers. Has a bit of a Leman air about it.
 
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RBHarter

West Central AR
I was told by reputable sources including CVA that the established safe maximum load for any percussion or flint locked rifle or musket is "twice the bore in grain volume FFg with any round ball " . A 45 is 90 gr of FFg ,a 50 would be 100 and so on . FFFg suggests about a 10% reduction.
 

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
RB - I found an Investarms manual online. Below is what they publish for max loads. They use Goex. I have Elephant. Goex is supposedly slightly stouter than Goex, so they say. And your numbers would work for Elephant (by the math), I am sure. I know we shoot 50 gr/RB in the 50. And I plan to shoot 80-85/RB in the 58. No way do I care to punish my shoulder with anything above 90ish I am sure - especially with the curved butt plate! And like Missionary says, if I can't get it done with ~80 grn/RB, I really don't want to be there!

Rifle
caliber projectile propellant
G-O FFg G-O FFFg
.45 .440 Round Ball 80 grs. 55 grs.
.45 220 grs. Maxi Ball 75 grs. 50 grs.
.45 265 grs. Minie Ball 60 grs. 50 grs.
.50 .490 Round Ball 90 grs. 70 grs.
.50 370 grs. Maxi Ball 80 grs. 60 grs.
.54 .530 Round Ball 100 grs. 80 grs.
.54 405 grs. Maxi Ball 90 grs. 70 grs.
.58 .560 Round Ball 110 grs. ------
.58 460 grs. Minie Ball 100 grs. ------
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I have 2 large-game muzzle-loaders currently--a Thompson-Center Hawken in .54" caliber with OEM 1-48" twist barrel for Maxi Balls and a Green Mountain swap barrel in 1-66" for PRB's.

The Hawken is a PRB-only gun as far as I'm concerned. Accuracy is far superior with PRBs to that of the Maxi-Balls. In my barrel, accuracy stayed good all the way to 110 grains, but that crescent buttplate on the T/C exacts a toll on the user's shoulder once past 100 grains behind a 280 grain PRB. No mas, por favor!

The other rifle is a Spanish-made Zouave-pattern in 58 caliber with 1-72" shallow-groove twist. I have fired traditional Minie balls through it using musket caps and 60 grains of Goex Flaming Dirt. Recoil isn't strident, accuracy is about like deer slugs in a rifle-sighted Rem-870.......five go into about 3" at 50 yards. Velocity runs about 900-925 FPS; 60 grains of FFg was the service load using the Minie balls during the War Of Northern Aggression.

Patched round balls elevate performance markedly with this rifle. A .570" RB patched with .015" ticking soaked in melted SPG atop 80 grains of Goex F/D will run about 1275-1300 FPS and shoot into 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" at 50 yards. Accuarcy degrades and recoil increased at 90-100 grain charge weights. 80 grains is its sweet spot, but is by no means a maximum load.

I still have Swiss and KIK powders on hand. These burn cleaner and provide a bit more energy per a given charge than does Goex. Musket caps are all I use for hunting loads.

To conclude--I have seen two massive mule deer in California during my lifetime. The first occurred during deer season 1983 at 0400 hours. I was on duty driving a patrol unit up Old Banning-Idyllwild Road. This HUGE beast stepped out into view that late October early morning, and had a couple does with him. We looked at each other for a half-minute before the 3 critters walked out of my headlights on the curve. Remarkable.

The next monster California buck showed himself right at shooting light on an early November morning while I was afield, 400-450 yards away across Cienega Seca in the Santa Ana River's headwaters area. If I had my scoped Model 70 x 30-06 with me, I would have tried the shot. That season I had committed to taking my deer with ether a magnum revolver or a M/L rifle, and i had both along for the ride this day. What followed was the most sublime, exhausting, and memorable day of deer stalking it has ever been my pleasure to engage in. That wise old buck toyed with me for 11+ hours, staying just out of view and/or shooting range all day. It was the last day of the season as sundown fell; legal shooting time ended 30 minutes later. Job well done, Mr. Muley. That Hawken and my S&W 686 x 4" ended my 1996 deer season with style.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
.54 and 58's are nice. The .54 is inherently accurate same as the .40!
Took a number of white tails at up to 75 yards one shot! But mine were from a 39" barrel so Velocity would be higher but again mine are Flintlock not a sealed system as percussion!
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
Did Pedersoli make a .65 or so rifle ? Have a .54 and a .72 but have never come across an "in-between diameter".
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Did Pedersoli make a .65 or so rifle ? Have a .54 and a .72 but have never come across an "in-between diameter".

.62 was a thing for some plains rifles.

I had a .62 cal Sharon barrel at one time and all the pieces-parts to build a full-stock Hawken. As far as I got was fitting the hooked tang and tuning up the flats on the barrel. Finished school, landed a "real" job and was suddenly too busy to do fun stuff any more. Sold the lot pretty cheap.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Never knew that they made a .62 rifle. All that I have seen are flintlock fowlers.


Most of the ones I've seen were patterned after Hawkens or Gemmers - sort of the classic "plains-rifle" build and meant for big critters, west of the Mississippi. I'm not sure how common they were during the fur trapper era, but they are somewhat popular among some dedicated Mountain (western) Man folks.
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
Good golly gosh, reading these posts brings back memories. All of the dabbling we did in the 80s and 90s with muzzle loaders and tents, and primitive camps and hunting. Too many guns, too little time!
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Good golly gosh, reading these posts brings back memories. All of the dabbling we did in the 80s and 90s with muzzle loaders and tents, and primitive camps and hunting. Too many guns, too little time!

Yep.

Used to be a trade show or rendezvous of some sort going on around her two or four times a year. Never hear of them now. That was a period of time I enjoyed very much.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Two reasons: first people who grew up in the 1980's and later have no interest in reenacting or camping in tents, that was the age of the yuppie. Second was 9/11 and the rise of "tactical" rifle and pistol shooting. Even here in the west, Cowboy Action and BPCR shooting is only 10% of what it was in the 1990's. But our range has 100 plus draw from a couple of hundred miles for run and jump pistol shooting.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
This is true. As we "progress" in time, it's gotten worse and people don't seem to want to learn to do things or to strive to perfecting their abilities - everything is supposed to just work for them or be easy.

I might have hurt some feelings the other day when I criticized the whining about how hard it is to put a pre-MKIV Ruger Auto back together. It's an ingenious design and, yes, it takes some effort to build the skill to put one together, but it's not a monumental task and a a little EFFORT and PRACTICE is all it takes.

I constantly have to remind students that they have to WORK to get good at what they are studying. That's why they'll get paid more than people who cannot do those things.
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
This is true. As we "progress" in time, it's gotten worse and people don't seem to want to learn to do things or to strive to perfecting their abilities - everything is supposed to just work for them or be easy.

I might have hurt some feelings the other day when I criticized the whining about how hard it is to put a pre-MKIV Ruger Auto back together. It's an ingenious design and, yes, it takes some effort to build the skill to put one together, but it's not a monumental task and a a little EFFORT and PRACTICE is all it takes.

I constantly have to remind students that they have to WORK to get good at what they are studying. That's why they'll get paid more than people who cannot do those things.
I was the go to guy for assembling these in very gun hot I worked at! One place we had to locations. I was manager of one (entire place) and reloading/ Range manager of the other. I worked the main store daily and second store three days afternoons. Seems every week I had one of these in the 90's come in in a bag or box to assemble!! Hahaha. All the memories...
Then on the range I broke ore egos of people who would come in with a gun that was "bad" and couldnt shoot straight. The tore manager of second store found great joy in calling me over the intercoms to meet a customer on the range with X or Y caliber ammo. Hahahaha