NOE Clone of NEI 358 282 GC, 300gr Flat Nose?

yodogsandman

Well-Known Member
What do you .35 guys think of a NOE clone of NEI 358 282 GC 300gr flat nose?

I've started an interest thread over on the NOE site for a clone of a NEI 358 282 GC 300gr flat nosed bullet mold. Guys, this is a real thumper! With it's flat nose and heavy weight, I'd expect awesome terminal performance in the 35 Whelen.

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index....pic,993.0.html
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Attached Thumbnails
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
Not to side track this thread, but Walt made some fine moulds when he operated NEI . Here is an old one made by Walt before his death.
I've been shooting my 358 Win. Weatherby that JES rebored for me with 3 groove rifling.
It is a " nail driver" ! ! It particularly likes bullets 250 grs. - 290 grs.

Here is my NEI 262 HP gas check. The bullet drops at about .361" .
A real pleasure to cast with. Erik HP'd it for me. It is a killer. It is one of the molds that I own that I just would not sell.

I cast about 300 of them recently. I shortened the HP pin to prevent the bullet from exploding upon impact.


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Ian

Notorious member
Pay attention to the nose of the NEI bullet, guys, and make certain that Al does as well.
 

yodogsandman

Well-Known Member
Ian, what's your concern? The NEI 358 282 GC mold I have casts the nose diameter at .347" which is undersized for my 35 Whelen by .003". It might have been a special order mold that I ended up with second hand. I'm hoping that if Al does a clone, it'll have a larger nose diameter.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Ian, what's your concern? The NEI 358 282 GC mold I have casts the nose diameter at .347" which is undersized for my 35 Whelen by .003". It might have been a special order mold that I ended up with second hand. I'm hoping that if Al does a clone, it'll have a larger nose diameter.

Look really close at the last picture Ben posted. Tell me what you see and why it's important to the design.
 

Ian

Notorious member
That's what I was afraid of. Think about the bullet shape, throat shape, and what happens in the first 1/4" of bullet travel to make or break accuracy.

This site is about art and science, and I can think of few specifics where those disciplines apply more than to bullet fit.
 

yodogsandman

Well-Known Member
That first quarter inch is the only place you get to steer the bullet straight into the barrel while pressure builds and at that point is only supported by the bore riding portion of the bullet nose. As pressure builds behind it, it's propelled forward as the bullet is released from the case mouth. That bullet has to be built with the proper taper to enter the throat straight in the millisecond after ignition that it has to align itself.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Different philosophies will support the nose at different points with different parts of the throat during the transition, but basically that's what I think too, especially after my go-rounds with 99%-supported bullet designs having near interference neck fit, case mouth contacting the end of the chamber, and an exact throat match with the bullet. The bullets that provide some wiggle room in the right places, support in the right places, and that make a gradual and straight transition seem to shoot the absolute best for me. Of course the alloy has to be right for what you're trying to accomplish, too.
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
I'm no expert on the physics of bullet alignment, etc. However, I do know when a bullet shoots well and when they don't .

The one you see in the photos above that Walt made is a SHOOTER !

Ben
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
Ian,

I'm not trying to be cute or smart, but how can different philosophies support the nose at different points ? Considering that philosophy is the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.

Maybe my chance to learn something here ?

Ben
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I am not Ian but I think, and that is dangerous, he is speaking of different philosophies on HOW the nose should be supported.
We can have a hard jam into the lands with a morse taper fit. We can also have a smooth taper that can self center in the throat on launch.
What I think works best is the smooth taper that allows a self alignment on launch. Let the bullet find center on its own, just start it straight as possible.

Ian and I both tried a bullet that is made to fit snug into the Leade angle. This bullet is held straight on entry but it also has shown a tendency to rivet as the nose isn't moving at ignition but the back end is. Accuracy just wasn't there as pressure velocity grew.
I prefer a bullet deainged to be self centering. Start it straight as possible and as centered as possible in the bore. Let it have a bit of room to self center rather than jamming it in the rifling.
 
S

SwedeNelson

Guest
The bullet above (358-282 NEI Clone) and the bullet Ben has posted pictures of are two very different bullets / nose
If you would like to be of some help maybe we can get on the same page.
I have a drawing up on our forum if you are interested in making comments.

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?topic=993.0

Bullet maker,maker
Al Nelson
 

Ian

Notorious member
Ian,

I'm not trying to be cute or smart, but how can different philosophies support the nose at different points ? Considering that philosophy is the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.

Maybe my chance to learn something here ?

Ben

Ben, some take the approach of a parallel-nose bullet and fiddle with things until it becomes a slight interference fit in the lands...but not too much interference. The classic "bore rider". Generally, the entire nose is essentially unsupported. That is the "bore/groove" philosophy and it only works at extremely mild velocity and pressure. Lee bullets are perfect examples of this, just fit the bore with the nose and the groove with the driving bands.

Some others notice that rifle throats almost invariably have a taper to them at some point, and may or may not have a parallel freebore. Those same folks may realize that launch pressures often exceed the yeild strength of the alloy, and wish to contain the bullet with minimal deformation to prevent damage that will make the bullet out-of-balance in flight. So they design a bullet that mimics the throat shape very closely, though that method has its own set of challenges as Brad outlined. Obviously, this is not a very effective way to make production moulds because a given design would fit only a few production chambers, and normal erosion alters that original cut as the gun is used.

Then there is the "self-aligning" concept, based on the, yes "philosophy" or more accurately, the hypothesis, that the best way to achieve perfect alignment with the necessary tolerances of fixed ammunition is while the bullet is actually moving out of the case neck. Fixed ammunition needs wiggle room to function in the gun, and that precludes "perfect" static bullet alignment. Not that it stays perfect for long after the primer is struck anyway. So some muse that the nose needs to be convex in order to funnel itself into the throat, and some think the opposite. Of the concave nose philosophers, some design the entire curve to be more steep than any part of the throat that will contact. Others design concave bullet noses which are entirely more narrow than any throat angle so they can wiggle around more in the back than the front. Still others design the nose concave with a less-than-throat-angle front part, and greater-than-throat-angle rear part, sort of a parabola or two or three angle nose.

MY philosophy, as always subject to revision as I learn more, is essentially the latter. I've had the best results, at any velocity, using bullets that have a nose which begins slightly more "acute" than the leade angle, and end slightly more "obtuse". Those aren't the right terms for it, but I'm behind on my coffee intake this morning. There is a whole set of guidelines for making this work, based on alloy type, hardness, and pressure. Generally it works best with a low-antimony, lower-tin alloy that's either air cooled, water-quenched, or oven heat treated to match the pressure used. Below about 16-1800 fps, tin and antimony can be equal and do fine, sometimes better than the low-antimony material depending on the powder burn rate. Why all the fuss? Because how this design works depends on the bullet going through a metamorphosis at launch: First, the powder needs to ignite and begin burning slowly to minimize the speed the bullet has when it actually engages the leade and bangs around to find center. If the bullet is moving too fast, it will simply crush into the side of the throat and be crooked ever after. So we want it to self-guide and GRADUALLY engage the leade angle, not smack into it all at once. Powder pressure rise is a curve, and with this design, engraving pressure is also a curve. Those two lines will cross at some point, and right before they do, the alloy strength should be exceeded by the powder pressure. What that does (as the back part of the nose starts to be folded back by the leade angle) is force alloy up through the bullet from the back and cause the middle part of the nose (which should be smaller than the throat at that point and only front and rear of the nose touching) to "bump" to a perfect throat match. More perfect than you can get with any static fit. Essentially this method involves breech-seating the bullet with powder. To pull it off, the alloy needs to have the grain structure conducive to "drawing" rather than "squishing", the burn rate and pressure must be within a narrow window, the pressure curve must be the correct shape for the characteristics of the alloy, and the guy pulling the press handle must do his job to set all this up with proper static fit...not too much jump, not too little, just the right neck tension for the system, finding the bullet body size that the system likes, and a few tricks of neck preparation help such as leaving an unsized bit at the base to aid pre-alignment, turning necks to reduce thin spots and aid in concentric bullet release, leaving a little flare on lower-velocity stuff, etc.

The problem I keep seeing over and over is that nose shape either is ignored or mis-understood, particularly with copies. Everyone is guilty of this to one extent or another. Walt had his own ideas of bullet fit, and from what I hear they were mostly spot-on. I see three distinct radii on that 360-262 nose, and off the top of my head can see two common manufacturer's chambers that will use that to maximum advantage, one being the abruptly-throated Marlin .35 Remington chambers. So my whole point here is to get everyone to think this through, think of the applications, alloy that will be used, pressure levels, and do some pound casts and talk about throat shapes before jumping off into a new design. Or if doing a direct clone, make sure the subtleties that make a good design work are accurately duplicated. There's a lot more to successful bullet design than meets the eye.
 

yodogsandman

Well-Known Member
Ian, That's the best that I've ever seen it explained!

How do you feel about the "DD" rings that NEI sometimes used on the noses. I've always felt that they were "Band-Aids" to correct a poor fitting nose.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Honestly I have no experience with nose rings, but a lot of times a simple band-aid gets the job done.

I should have added one thing in the second-to-last paragraph, and that is that while the bullet is changing shape and the nose likely being bumped to full contact with the throat, the whole bullet is in motion. Achieving an equally-well aligned and perfect static contact fit through precise bullet-throat matching doesn't work a lot of the time because stresses on the bullet body are extreme...it is starting from a dead standstill against resistance. Think of air compressor unloaders, and why air conditioners have timers that prevent immediate restart of the compressors until pressure has equalized in the system....much harder to start against a high load. Starting against a load can cause the base of the bullet to "rivet" or expand and flow into the recess in front of the case mouth, or simply bend the base as far as it can go to one side of the chamber neck before the bullet even begins to move. GRADUAL application of force does less unbalancing damage to the bullet. To have gradual force application, the resistance encountered needs to be gradual, so contact with the nose needs to somehow occur a little at a time.