NOE Clone of NEI 358 282 GC, 300gr Flat Nose?

[Ian]

I think Brad's idea is winning so far, it will fit a lot of different throats, different alloys/casting temps, and tolerate a lot of different case trim lengths etc.

Unless you're only thinking in two dimensions (fine if you do), bore diameter matters. If you're thinking calculus instead of arithmetic, the only thing that really matters is chamber neck diameter, case neck thickness, throat entrance diameter, and throat shape, since you aren't relying on the tops of the lands to support the nose of the bullet (maybe support it....). It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Don't expect good high-velocity accuracy from a bullet with a parallel nose.

 

[35 shooter]

Decisions, decisions huh yodog? I like what Brad suggested about no sharp edge on that front band and taper from there. That is a fairly long bullet and to keep the check in the neck you could wind up with a crush fit in the throat on that sharp edge otherwise...just a thought.

 

[yodogsandman]

Decisions, decisions huh yodog? I like what Brad suggested about no sharp edge on that front band and taper from there. That is a fairly long bullet and to keep the check in the neck you could wind up with a crush fit in the throat on that sharp edge otherwise...just a thought.

That's what I have now, a crunch fit in the throat (front band) and a nose diameter of .347", .003" smaller than the bore diameter. Wobble, wobble, wobble!

 

[35 shooter]

That's what I have now, a crunch fit in the throat (front band) and a nose diameter of .347", .003" smaller than the bore diameter. Wobble, wobble, wobble!

That's what i ran into with the 358009. Correct seating depth was obtained by seating deeper untill i just had bare contact on the front band. At that point in my chamber, i had just a hint of rifling contact on the nose and the bottom of the check was even with the bottom of the neck. Groups were cut in half then, going from 2" to 1" @ 100 yds.
Just a guess on my part, but i think a taper from the front band would have helped, giving me a bit longer seating depth. Oh, the nose is .350 on that one.
I don't pretend to understand bullet design as well as i should, or as well as others here do, but that tapered design makes sense to me.
Think of the 360230 that does so well in our 35's.

 

[yodogsandman]

Here's the SAAMI Specifications for the 35 Whelen

 

[yodogsandman]

Must remember that Al's drawing is based on using wheel weight alloy.

 

[yodogsandman]

Thanks Ian, by making a pound cast, things become much clearer!

The bullet is 1.219" long.

For the bullet base to be even with the neck/shoulder junction, it must be seated out to 3.245" C.O.A.L. The top lube groove will be almost fully exposed.

The throat taper/ball seat starts at 2.785" and the taper stops at 2.855". Just .70" long to go from the .358" groove diameter to the chamber freebore area at .360"and a tudge.

At a seated cartridge overall length of 3.245", the top of the top band just starts to engrave from the beginning of the lands. The top of the top band is at 2.795".

 

[yodogsandman]

So, If that long, bore riding nose is tapered from .349" to .352" that would allow a tight fit in my bore and any rifle of SAAMI specifications for the 35 Whelen. The nose size could be thrown by either mixing 50/50 for a smaller nose or linotype for a larger nose. This is a hunting bullet and needs to be able to be taken back out of the chamber with the bullet still intact in the loaded round with no chance of it sticking and pulling out.

The top band could be tapered, as Brad has mentioned (thanks Brad). Say, from the very top at .352" to the full bullet diameter of .361" over the length of the .130" wide band. That taper should allow for the gas check to remain within the neck, even with a tight bore.

I would not expect much wobble during launch if the bands are sized to just under the chamber size (.360"), the case neck walls are thick enough to allow release and not much more and at least half of the long bore riding portion of the nose is in contact with the lands. For what little room to wobble there is, it would be straightened out by the taper of the top band (.352" to .361"). This bullet would be aimed right from the chamber, before ignition, to shoot straight down the bore. Best of all...all those rifles built to 35 Whelen SAAMI specs could benefit from using it.

I would not be able to get past 2400 FPS with my 1 in 12 twist, with current propellants. Those with 1 in 14" or 1 in 16" twists might be able to do a little more. The length and weight of the bullet may not perform (stabilize) well enough to go much faster in the slower twist barrels. Of course, the longer the barrel, the higher the velocities achieved. Mine is 22". I believe a 35 caliber FN bullet, weighing 300gr+ will decisively flatten any North American game and most game on any other continent, too!

 

[35 shooter]

Sounds better and better all the time. One question though, as this is a long bullet, would tapering to .347 or .345 give the front end a bit more time to move forward before the nose is engaged and starts to twist.
In other words getting a bit more length engaged before the rear end starts getting torqued?
I may be over thinking that?

Your right, that bullet would handle anything!

 

[Brad]

Where does this torque thing come from?
Look at revolver bullets. They start out going straight then slam into the rifling. They don't torque, they show signs of skid instead. Lots of photos exist of revolver bullets that show skid.

 

[Rick]

In other words getting a bit more length engaged before the rear end starts getting torqued?
I may be over thinking that?

Will only take a bit of logical thinking to realize that the base of the bullet isn't going to "torque", if the front driving bands are starting to twist in the rifling the rear of the bullet is doing exactly the same thing at the same time. By torqueing your saying that the front of a bullet is starting to rotate but the rear isn't. Really? Think on that for a bit. Yes, I would say that you may be over thinking that.

 

[yodogsandman]

At least half the bore riding nose will be tucked right in tight in the bore while just sitting there prior to ignition. So, half of the nose would start slightly engraved by the lands. At ignition, when the neck releases the bullet and it accelerates, both ends of the bullet would spin the same. The slower the start with slower powders, the better, though, IMHO.

I've already found that to recover a bullet from the back stop banking, you need to dig very, very deep....past my elbow deep. I've never recovered one!

 

[35 shooter]

I probably don't know all the correct terminology when it comes to all of this. Just thinking of what might happen with a longer bullet like this.

 

[Brad]

Those rifle bullets do go deep, that is for sure. Don't be amazed to find that many of them just go to pieces too. I rarely find 30 cal bullets fired over 2400 fps intact. Most of them I find are the check shank and a bit ahead of that and nothing more.

 

[Ian]

Those rifle bullets do go deep, that is for sure. Don't be amazed to find that many of them just go to pieces too. I rarely find 30 cal bullets fired over 2400 fps intact. Most of them I find are the check shank and a bit ahead of that and nothing more.

True that.

 

[yodogsandman]

I'd love to find one! The hole fits my whole arm to my elbow, then I have to start to dig. The fastest I've run these are about 2300 FPS, with powder coated base bands only. Groups were bad.

 

[JWFilips]

Wow...what kind of material is your backstop. Up here on our public State range they use a combo of course sands and fly ash...nothing goes very deep. Even recovered 50 bmgs in this stuff ( not mine of course) Usually I can find my 30s 8 mm & 35 cals within a few inches (of course the 22 & 24s really come apart)

 

[Brad]

We have a clay type soil and the stuff is awesome at allowing stuff to penetrate. When wet it will leave large cavities where the bullets hit that taper down to a pencil type hole where the bullet keeps going.
Smaller and faster stuff goes to pieces, bigger stuff chews large holes. When it is dry and dusty larger stuff is easy to find. Small, fast stuff always goes to pieces.

Now the handgun berms, they are an awesome source of range scrap. I love a 45 shooter. Wet berms and lots of shooting work well to bring old bullets to the surface. Dry, dusty berms are best for picking.

 

[yodogsandman]

Rub it in!! Someone decided to cover the berms with a foot of bark mulch, now! Impossible to retrieve any lead easily through that. Rifle and pistol ranges. They say it cuts down on ricochets.

Those big .35 holes were shot in the middle of winter, before the bark mulch debacle. The gravel berms were frozen. I did find 4, 505gr paper patched 45-70's laying in the snow this spring though, in perfect shape. The older gentleman shoots these at about 1100 FPS in a Handy Rifle.

 

[JWFilips]

Yes Yes Just love when the 45 guys come out ( & We know when! ) Those 200 + semi wad cutters ...mostly commercial) account for the most weight in our picking bags!!!
In our backstop material they just lay on top as the backstop gets churned up! easy picking unless the grubbers get there first ...but since I offered to byuy what they dig they have taken flight....guess they thought they were being set up! No folks call me the hero of the berms because I chased away the grubbers! Darn I just wanted to buy their lead without having to pick it myself