NOE Clone of NEI 358 282 GC, 300gr Flat Nose?

yodogsandman

Well-Known Member
Brad suggested the transition angle between the nose and top band diameters of about .070" long. Looking over at Accurate Molds at their 35 molds, I notice they have some with .061" and .063" long transitions. So, knowing that, using the full length of the top band for that transition, needs further thought and research.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I am certainly no expert here but does that transition need to be a certain length or is the angle of the transition more critical? Anyone?

I don't even know if the exact dimensions of the transition matter as much as how the transition is made-no sharp corners. Will the bullet know if the transition is .010 longer or shorter? Will the gun notice?
 

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
I probably don't know all the correct terminology when it comes to all of this. Just thinking of what might happen with a longer bullet like this.
OK, after some research on my part it seems the correct word for what i was refering to as torque is riveting....sorry for the confusion.
Seems to happen mostly with longer bullets or heavier softer alloys seated too far below the neck...or in a chamber where the neck can stand open too much when fired(over sized neck area) leaving the base pretty non supported as engraving and spin begins. Lol and yes Rick, i'm aware the whole bullet spins as engraving starts.

This may be of no concern in yodog's rifle as he has said his gc would be at the base of his neck. However i'm interested in this bullet too and my case necks stand open as much as .009 on firing on my hottest loads. I have a huge neck area, but actually a good throat area. Factory over did it from the neck back it seems. This is one reason i've taken to leaving the flare or bell on my cases when loaded to help center things a bit more. I've had some very tight groups lately as a result.

Again i may be over thinking this, but in my case with the oversize neck area and a longer heavier bullet I might benefit from a bit more taper to .347 instead of .349 allowing maybe a bit longer seating depth before engraving on the .350 section in the lands. In other words, more nose section in the bore giving the base a shorter distance to go to get fully engraved.
I'm trying to learn something about bullet design here actually.
 
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Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Ah, riveting. That can be a very real thing.
Ian had an excellent example in one of his rifles. He found little lead rings at the end of the case neck. Think of what happens to our relatively putty like bullet when you hit it with 30 K PSI. If I recall correctly he was using a bullet that was shaped to fit the leade angle exactly. So, the nose can't go anywhere but the base is suddenly hit with a bunch of pressure. What happened? The bullet expanded, or riveted, and some was extruded into the little space between the end of the case and the end of the neck portion of the chamber.

Riveting can be of benefit, it is essentially what makes many ML projectiles work. Think of a minie ball in a rifled musket. Undersized until ignition, the pressure causes the projectile to expand and fill the bore.

Don't forget that alloy and load make a difference in riveting too. Sometimes it isn't a bad thing as it can allow a nose to fill the rifling a bit better.

More nose taper, beginning with a smaller diameter, isn't a bad thing. A bullet that can fit as many rifles, or as many worn throats, as possible is a good thing.

Leaving the neck flare is a tool I know fiver likes to use. I have done the same Ina few rifles to help center a bullet then neck thickness wasn't near enough to fill a generous chamber.

You are looking to learn and asking questions. That alone makes you more likely to do well than most who simply want to be spoon fed. In many ways that is exactly why this forum exists. We wanted a place where we could share info. We may not always agree but we can disagree in a polite manner. There also isn't always a single right answer.
 
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yodogsandman

Well-Known Member
OK, after some research on my part it seems the correct word for what i was refering to as torque is riveting....sorry for the confusion.
Seems to happen mostly with longer bullets or heavier softer alloys seated too far below the neck...or in a chamber where the neck can stand open too much when fired(over sized neck area) leaving the base pretty non supported as engraving and spin begins. Lol and yes Rick, i'm aware the whole bullet spins as engraving starts.

This may be of no concern in yodog's rifle as he has said his gc would be at the base of his neck. However i'm interested in this bullet too and my case necks stand open as much as .009 on firing on my hottest loads. I have a huge neck area, but actually a good throat area. Factory over did it from the neck back it seems. This is one reason i've taken to leaving the flare or bell on my cases when loaded to help center things a bit more. I've had some very tight groups lately as a result.

Again i may be over thinking this, but in my case with the oversize neck area and a longer heavier bullet I might benefit from a bit more taper to .347 instead of .349 allowing maybe a bit longer seating depth before engraving on the .350 section in the lands. In other words, more nose section in the bore giving the base a shorter distance to go to get fully engraved.
I'm trying to learn something about bullet design here actually.

If your lands/bore diameter is SAAMI dimensioned at .350". the bullet won't start to engrave the lands until reaching the .350" portion of the nose. My intent is to have the nose start engraving just as the round is fully chambered with the bullet base seated even with the case neck bottom. Looking to have the bullet lightly engraved on the lands for about 1/8" nearest to the top band when chambered. A little taper on the nose/top band transition will give a little wiggle room for seating depth differences between different rifles.

Have you made a pound slug of your chamber throat? By finding the spot where your lands are .350" and measuring back to the case neck/shoulder junction, a distance to start engraving can be estimated assuming the bullet base is seated to that junction.

Do you remember how resistant I was to doing a pound slug of my 35 Whelen chamber throat? LOL!
 
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35 shooter

Well-Known Member
Yodog i have no doubt Al's drawing as is will work just fine and also the tapered from the band design being discussed here. I think either will have plenty of seating room in a whelen.
After working with the 360230 bullet we both have, i am becoming a fan of taper from the band and eliminating that sharp front edge of the band.

My measurements echo yours except probably my neck area. For some reason TC decided a railroad tunnel
was good idea there? Again i think either way you go here will be fine.
I just got momentarily concerned about my neck area...i don't think it's going to be much of an issue.
Powder choice and seating depth should work out any issues there!

A step down from a sharp 360 band to .350 shoots great in my rifle as does the more tapered design of the 360230 rd bullet.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
How fast are you guys planning on driving these? A 300 gr bullet at 2K plus is a handful.
I can assure you that penetration will not be an issue, unless you go clean thru your berm.
 

yodogsandman

Well-Known Member
I plan to push it as fast as possible at paper. I could be happy at about 2200 FPS for hunting. Still hoping for a moose permit this year but, the calendar is getting short. My back up plan is to use the Lyman 358009 at 283gr. My chrony's skyscreen is broken so, don't know how fast that's going. Shot a 1.720", 10 shot group at 100 yards with the 358009 today using 52.0gr IMR4831. Any guesses on the velocity (22", 1 in 12 twist barrel)?
 

Ian

Notorious member
OK, after some research on my part it seems the correct word for what i was refering to as torque is riveting....sorry for the confusion.
Seems to happen mostly with longer bullets or heavier softer alloys seated too far below the neck...or in a chamber where the neck can stand open too much when fired(over sized neck area) leaving the base pretty non supported as engraving and spin begins. Lol and yes Rick, i'm aware the whole bullet spins as engraving starts.

This may be of no concern in yodog's rifle as he has said his gc would be at the base of his neck. However i'm interested in this bullet too and my case necks stand open as much as .009 on firing on my hottest loads. I have a huge neck area, but actually a good throat area. Factory over did it from the neck back it seems. This is one reason i've taken to leaving the flare or bell on my cases when loaded to help center things a bit more. I've had some very tight groups lately as a result.

Again i may be over thinking this, but in my case with the oversize neck area and a longer heavier bullet I might benefit from a bit more taper to .347 instead of .349 allowing maybe a bit longer seating depth before engraving on the .350 section in the lands. In other words, more nose section in the bore giving the base a shorter distance to go to get fully engraved.
I'm trying to learn something about bullet design here actually.

Let me interject something here. Do you suppose that powder gas or slugged-up bullet base is causing your necks to expand to the limit of the chamber neck? Or is it only gas pressure after the bullet is well out of the case? Or is the pressure wave behind the bullet spreading out the neck as the bullet base moves?

Excessive chamber neck clearance can be a huge concern for accuracy, especially at high velocity/pressure. BUT, dynamic bullet fit in the throat, alloy composition/temper, and the rate of pressure rise behind the bullet after ignition (pressure curve, including the primer impulse) all affect what happens to the back part and body of the bullet while the nose is taking on the rifling. Bullets can become putty, can remain virtually un-changed except for rifling engraves, or somewhere in between. Think about that in-between part and you might start to see some possibilities that can solve chamber neck slop and crooked starts.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I plan to push it as fast as possible at paper. I could be happy at about 2200 FPS for hunting. Still hoping for a moose permit this year but, the calendar is getting short. My back up plan is to use the Lyman 358009 at 283gr. My chrony's skyscreen is broken so, don't know how fast that's going. Shot a 1.720", 10 shot group at 100 yards with the 358009 today using 52.0gr IMR4831. Any guesses on the velocity (22", 1 in 12 twist barrel)?

I have at least one extra complete set of Shooting Chrony skyscreens and rods, PM me your addy again and they're yours.
 

yodogsandman

Well-Known Member
Thanks! That's a very generous offer! I'll do that but, let me try some super glue on mine first. There goes my excuses for not chronographing my loads!
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
My chronograph is used almost to excess. I chronograph damn near everything. Oddly, my every day use loads for handguns don't get shot over it. Never chronograph end a 45 ACP or 9 mm. Heck, very few handgun loads get chrono'd by me.

If you get a moose permit I think that bullet will do the job. And then some.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Super Glue will work fine on clean breaks provided you get a TIGHT fit when you put it together. I repaired one by placing the broken pieces on waxed paper and sliding them together. A little Vaseline smeared over the exposed joint will help it cure by removing oxygen. Something else that works is replace the things altogether with wooden dowels and strips cut from a food-grade, translucent white 3 or 5-gallon bucket, or similar such as car wash chemicals come in. I picked up a bunch of translucent 7-gallon buckets and lids from a car wash one time when the attendant was doing some maintenance, one of those "intersections of opportunity and preparedness".

Brad, let me add "Magneto Speed" to your wish list. That and a SSTM setup. And a tool post grinder....
 

yodogsandman

Well-Known Member
It should be a good year to call them in so, range shouldn't be a problem. Minute of moose isn't real hard to achieve, either.
 

45 2.1

Active Member
If you all want to know what's wrong with my 31-190X, as well as the 30 and 35 XCB, and are curious about some of the particulars of effective bullet design, this may help. All this has been hashed through and discovered before, and had been done several times per generation since th 1800s.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?254975-Gear-s-190x/page2

Not a bad thread reference, but it isn't all there.... just more questions. Sometimes different designers get farther up the tree to the top, but some of the design elements were never understood. You will see people trying to match the leade taper exactly, or have a taper behind a bore riding nose. The 30 Sil has two tapers, based on certain elements that are in unwashed and washed throats with a different approach to what actually makes an accurate bullet....... as you've seemed to have found out (results of the design, not the reason for it though). It depends greatly on how a bullet is introduced into the rifling attendant on several other features also. You will learn a lot more shooting long range (300+ yards) than any other way (mistakes become clearly evident out there). Learn how to do a 2" group at 300 yards with full power semi-auto and the rest becomes a lot simpler to do.
 

45 2.1

Active Member
yodogsandman-
Sorry, I don't. It's something I and a couple of other guys do to entertain ourselves. We use some rather unusual methods to do that that others here and elsewhere berate us over...... so I don't post about it. Much simpler that way!
 

yodogsandman

Well-Known Member
OK...but, I like entertainment, too! I'd really like to get your opinions on whether this bullet will shoot. I'd hoped that you'd chime in on it. Is this currently drawn bullet design good with you?
 

45 2.1

Active Member
OK...but, I like entertainment, too! I'd really like to get your opinions on whether this bullet will shoot. I'd hoped that you'd chime in on it. Is this currently drawn bullet design good with you?

No bullet design shows for me. Does anyone see it?