Over sized nose on a bore rider

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
I've been doing quite a bit of research back and forth in the archives over on the cb site on bullet design. I saw a couple of posts on bore riders that caught my attention.
It seems they were able to go faster than before with the same bore riding bullet by increasing the bore riding nose 1000th bigger than bore dia.

A case in point would be a bore rider in 35 cal. with a nose of .350 and a bore dia. of .350. Is there any advantage in increasing the nose to .351? Any disadvantages?

My 358009 noe clone has a bore riding nose of .350 and my bore dia. is .350 and it shoots great from 1275 to 2200 fps., so i'm not about to do any lapping on that one just to see. Might have one made in the future though, depending on any answers i get here from folks that may have some experience with an oversized bore rider nose.
Just curious about all the things i've been reading about on design lately....also very cautious lol!
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
35 Shooter,
By no means am I a knowledgeable person on this because I have only been shooting my rifles with cast for only 3 year now. Not knowing much early on ; I pushed a lot of oversized boolits through my barrels ( before I knew much about proper rifle sizing) If I could chamber them they went down the tube. Now I knew enough to be safe to develop my load low and work up. Now looking back at three years of saved targets the tightest boolits shot the best targets ( for me anyway)

Jumping ahead to the recent post on me plain basing a 8 mm. That was a .329 boolit with a fat nose When I size down to what my rife needs the bore riding section is about the same as the drive bands so in reality almost the entire boolit is being engraved. It shot very well in the past before I plain Based it ( Used Gas Checks) & it still shoots great now probably better at lighter loads

Please note this is just an observation.
Jim
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
All is fine until a small change in alloy makes the nose a bit bigger yet and it no longer chambers easily.
This isn't bad if it is the last little bit and the action closing cams the case forward but try clambering a fat nosed round by shoving the bolt forward with your palm on the bolt knob. Not fun.
There is, in my opinion, too small, just right, and too big. Just right is great, the others are not so great.
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
Both JW and Brads comments are well stated. That said, getting to the point of just right is of course the issue, and often not easily accomplished.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Accurate, high-velocity bullets do not need to have their noses touching anything when the cartridge is chambered. Really. Reference my comments in the 35-caliber bullet design thread regarding "philosophies" of fitment. Also reference the Basement Articles where I explain bullet nose-throat interface and what happens there in great detail. Thinking in the old Lyman way of jam the nose in the rifling and size the body to groove diameter won't get you much over 16-1800 fps with any accuracy.

If you want to go fast, accurately, all the errors of conventional bullet fit begin to show up and have to be discovered and addressed. You will need a bullet shaped so that it funnels its way into the throat, made from an alloy that can extrude easily, matched to a powder that will plasticize the alloy slightly at just the right moment of launch...which is at the exact moment that the bullet finds throat center. Let's call it "wiggle and bump". Starting with the nose in the lands can certainly work here, but not by itself, because the fragile alignment created by the nose being "supported" by the narrow land surfaces in a few, tiny places is not strong enough to handle a high-velocity launch...unless you do the other things to support the rest of the bullet behind the nose.
 

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
35 Shooter,
By no means am I a knowledgeable person on this because I have only been shooting my rifles with cast for only 3 year now. Not knowing much early on ; I pushed a lot of oversized boolits through my barrels ( before I knew much about proper rifle sizing) If I could chamber them they went down the tube. Now I knew enough to be safe to develop my load low and work up. Now looking back at three years of saved targets the tightest boolits shot the best targets ( for me anyway)

Jumping ahead to the recent post on me plain basing a 8 mm. That was a .329 boolit with a fat nose When I size down to what my rife needs the bore riding section is about the same as the drive bands so in reality almost the entire boolit is being engraved. It shot very well in the past before I plain Based it ( Used Gas Checks) & it still shoots great now probably better at lighter loads

Please note this is just an observation.
Jim
Thanks JW. I'm about the same when it comes to shooting cast in rifles. I shot them for years in handguns, but only a bit over 2 years now in rifles......whole nuther ball game lol!
Like you i've come a long way in that time, but only now beginning to understand design and how important it is.

Since going to cast in rifles i haven't fired a single jacketed bullet. I don't even have a desire to anymore....cast is so much more challenging and fun! Still lots to learn though, so any experiences you and anyone else here has helps me put it all together so to speak.
 

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
Ian everything your saying makes total sense as the single most accurate bullet i have for my whelen is the 360230 noe. It incorporates a lot of the features you expound on for speed and accuracy and also has narrow bands and shallowish grooves. So far it was easier to get speed and accuracy from that design than any i've tried so far...took far less bench time and load work.
It's simply a .30 cal. ranch dog design bumped up to 35 cal. and has some of the features your talking about.

I was just curious here about the best way to go to get the most out of a bore rider design.
Lol i'm shooting a single shot right now and should have said so. I wasn't even thinking about the camming effect of a bolt action.
I agree with Brad there...not much fun turning the bolt on a thick nose.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
A single shot, like a Ruger 1 or a TC Encore with a slightly fat nose a pain in the ass. Ever try shoving a lead slug into the bore with your thumb? Been there, done that. Never again.

Never forget that no matter how hard you think your alloy is it will change shape some on the way down the bore. Our lead bullets are no match for the pressure that have behind them in many cases.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
I Definitely concur with Ian & Brad since the more I'm learning the more I'm finding the correct way. (& I have learned much since coming here)
I should mention that what I wrote above only had to deal with 1800fps and under I have very little experience with cast moving at anything faster.
I do know that early this year I jumped into the realm of 2000fps+ Using my .243 and the new NOE long 105 grain bore rider boolit …...Which gave me fits at first. Then I realized
things were way different once I sped up the boolit to get it to shoot right
I had to change alloy (harder) I had to seat the boolit back a bit instead of rammed in the throat. Different brand cases made a lot of difference so no more mixing cases.
So Yes at higher speeds cast boolit reloading becomes a different animal
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
okay I'm gonna ramble a little bit here and either muddy the XCB waters or clear them up some.
the original intent of the throat design was to have a bullet that was basically pre-slumped and glide through the throat under pressure.
this allowed every part of the boolit [can't help myself] to be supported somewhere somehow during the launch.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-165A-D.png

take a very close look at this bullet.
notice anything about it that rcbs/lyman/lee molds don't have [except the ED Harris designed Lee which they promptly screwed up]
this is a bore aligning [not riding] boolit which demands exact sizing through proper casting and reloading techniques.
size it down .001 on the drive bands and you ruin it's chances at a good launch, or alignment. ['somebody' knew something about throat design when 'they' drew it up]
this is the boolit I push to 2400 in my 308 [10 twist] with accuracy [5 shot groups] using H-4831sc that makes most guy's at the range cry.
maybe I could get more but I'm good with the groups. [shrugging]

[shttp://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdfhrug]

here is something else to look at.
the throat design for the XCB was taken directly from this drawing, except the neck diameter was supposed to be .003 smaller.
see that little angle right in front of the case/neck area?
that's the ball seat area.
how in the hell is a straight sided bullet supposed to deal with that?
oh... you just make them from lino-type and hope you don't get riveting to screw up the back of your boolit as it gets slammed right there by 50-k psi.
wonder why some powders don't work with a certain high bhn boolit?
yes, that is why.
now compare the first bullets picture with those angles, alignment galore, support you bet-ya.
ease of entrance without trailing edge failure and plenty of groove filling land gripping lead too. HMM
so you say you can't just take a mediocre design and make it bigger and hope it just glides right into this slightly [HA!] different throat shape and have it work.

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/35 Whelen.pdf

now here is a very accurate bore riding bullet.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/15...ain-silhouette-gas-check?cm_vc=ProductFinding
you bet you want engraving on that nose.
picking and poking at the mold with different alloys will improve groups more than anything else you can do with the entire loading process.
that nose is what aligns the rest of the cartridge and ensures the boolit enters the barrel straight.
also that long nose is going to need support, and t is going to impart spin to the rest of the boolit following it into the barrel.
engraving is only caused by a diameter to diameter comparison.
this is avery accurate bullet if held to the 1900 fps or below area
and yes 28.5 grs of 4895 with a pinch of Dacron will make groups better/as good as the one above going 500-fps faster. [it will nearly do it with 18 grs of 2400 too]
if I use the right alloy for the fitment of the boolits nose.

how about something else?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/11...rain-flat-nose-gas-check?cm_vc=ProductFinding

here is one of my all time favorites [it may have influenced the accurate mold]
it's a perfect feeding bullet in a 30-30 lever gun and fits the 30-30 throats pretty well too.
notice it has a crimp groove.
I have to put a firm roll crimp in there when I use it in my 30-30 leveruns or the bullet will stay behind when I de-chamber a round.
yep I believe in nose engraving.
but what about hunting?
that is my hunting bullet, I have shot everything from ground squirrels through deer with that boolit, same amount of engraving, same amount of alignment.

ohh one more thing I like about this boolit.
it has also gone to 2400 fps in a 1-12 twist barrel pushed along by a fast powder [AA-2230]
yes that is faster than a jacketed bullet in the 30-30 will go.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Just spelling it out for us layman's ...I very much enjoy the read and leaning while I do...Thanks Fiver!
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
ahhh you guy's seen that.
Bob p.m.'d me about it too, said I was starting to sound like him.:p
 

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
Thanks for taking the time to post all that along with the links fiver. Lots of things that were a bit "greek"
to me on bullet design are making more and more sense to me now just since coming to this site.
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
Greetings
I have not yet read all the links so if the following was addressed than a little repetition will occur.
So just to help stir this pot... Did you consider the rifling ? The lands : Are they narrow ? Tall ? Is the land area more than the groove, equal or less ? All this will affect a bore riding bullet and the mix it needs to be made with to support the pressure during the acceleration. How much support those bore riding long noses have during acceleration is going to matter at the muzzle end.
Powder speed also. Generally I am inclined to use the slowest burning powder I have available to reach the desired bullet speed. This way I can use a softer mix which for my purposes works out better. Less bullet nose "slump" in the barrel will aid flying to the intended target. Increase velocity and possibly the mix will not hold up to the acceleration by more powder or even a faster burning powder. Recovered bullets tell an interesting story about what happened inside the barrel.
Mike in Peru
 

Ian

Notorious member
Thanks for taking the time to post all that along with the links fiver. Lots of things that were a bit "greek"
to me on bullet design are making more and more sense to me now just since coming to this site.

"Being able to sort the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities".--Bwana
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
Mike brings up another good point, and one I touched on lightly.
the whole system has to tie together, I'm pretty fond of going towards the too slow end of the powder spectrum, running an alloy that's on the softer side, and allowing the boolit to glide into the barrel before accelerating it.

now this ain't the only way to get things done.
anyone that has read what I do to get an AR-15 shooting in the 2800 fps area will quickly recognize that what I write there and what I write here are completely two different approaches [almost]
I still went to the slower end of the powder spectrum but approached boolit fitment and alignment differently. [look at the HM-2 223 boolit I err 'someone' designed versus the accurate 165-A]
why?
because the AR system has to have some slop built into the system for It to work properly, it is a moving breathing machine where nothing is exactly static.
so changing where and how the boolit got/gets it's barrel alignment, and acceleration timing is critical in pushing that envelope while maintaining accuracy.
you give up accuracy for functioning and steal back everything you can get through alloy, diameter, case fitment, and design.
you put those same rounds in a bolt rifle [with neck sized cases] and you suddenly cut group size in half, with room to sneak up on more.

I'm for sure not saying AR's are not accurate.
but with cast you have to make compromises to how they operate which affects your ideal fitment.
your first step in gaining velocity and/or accuracy is getting the boolit in the barrel and out again without doing it any damage.
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
Greetings
Fiver well said speaking about AR's " but with cast you have to make compromises..."
If there ever was a shooting system that needs an adjustable gas port when dealing with cast it is a caliber .223 AR. I think we all need to be very helpful to fellow reloaders to start posting where our particular rifle, carbine or whatever barrel length has the port and the diameter. Finicky they can be. Probably would not hurt remembering the recoil spring pressure and the bolt weight seeing as there is a myriad of combinations that can be found there.
But like someone once said.. "If it was easy everyone would do it". Happily the 300 ACC is fatter !
Mike in Peru