Over sized nose on a bore rider

Paden

Active Member
I've not yet shot cast in long guns, only revolvers and 1911's...but I'm sneaking up on it. I understand the concepts behind sizing to the throat v. sizing to the bore. In revolvers, we do same, tho success is generally predicated upon the throat size / groove size relationship being appropriate, i.e. the throat diameter is ideally only about .001 larger than groove diameter. What I'm curious about regarding sizing to a rifle's throat is, if said throat is significantly larger than the groove diameter, and we swage a big fat throat sized bullet down the bore, where does all that lead go and how does it affect steerage in flight?
 
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James W. Miner

Active Member
Not much problem as long as you can chamber. That was the problem with my 30-30 boolit. I shoot .311" in the Marlin but the nose must be no larger then .301".
I always found the relationship to groove is more important then the throats. Even in a revolver, a little over groove is best and not to an oversize throat. I always use my .44 as an example, .4324" throats but it shoots .430 to .432 just fine. .431" is lights out. A straight start and cylinder guidance from the boolit is best.
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
I recently obtained a 311291 mold. The nose cast unusually large in my opinion. The nose mikes .305 ". At first, I thought that something was keeping the mold halves from completely closing....but that wasn't it... the nose dia. on this particular mold is just LARGE. The bands and g/c shank have the proper dimensions for a .30 cal. mold, but the nose is just a little bit large for my taste in my particular .30 cal. rifles. I guess that .305" would be great for the 7.62 X 54 Russian or the 7.65 Argentine, or the 303 Brit but I'm not currently shooting any of those calibers. I do shoot a lot of .30 cal. cast bullets out of my many 30-06 and 308 Win. rifles.

Most of my .30 cal. rifles need .301 and .302 nose diameters. So........I contacted Buckshot and asked him to make me a nose 1st sizing die that would size the bullets nose to .302 " without any sizing done to the drive bands of the bullet .
( this die has no lube holes and was ordered that way )

As usual, Rick's work was flawless ! !

Many thanks Rick ! !

See photos......

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I owned the .302" nose sizing die for about 2 years and realized some of my many rifles needed a nose smaller than .302" so I contacted Rick ( Buckshot ) about making me a cast bullet nose sizing die that would take the Redding bushings . I received the die a few days ago. It works flawlessly. This die takes the Redding sizing bushings that are available from MidWay, Graf's , etc.

Here are the bushings, I chose to buy the heat treated, hardened steel bushings since they are about 60% of the price of the Nitride ones. A thin film of lube on about every 3rd bullet going into the sizer ring is all this is needed with these steel bushings. They are polished " mirror smooth".

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Here is Buckshot's bushing die with a Redding .301 sizer ring in place and ready to be installed in my Lyman 450 :

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quicksylver

Well-Known Member
Greetings
I have not yet read all the links so if the following was addressed than a little repetition will occur.
So just to help stir this pot... Did you consider the rifling ? The lands : Are they narrow ? Tall ? Is the land area more than the groove, equal or less ? All this will affect a bore riding bullet and the mix it needs to be made with to support the pressure during the acceleration. How much support those bore riding long noses have during acceleration is going to matter at the muzzle end.
Powder speed also. Generally I am inclined to use the slowest burning powder I have available to reach the desired bullet speed. This way I can use a softer mix which for my purposes works out better. Less bullet nose "slump" in the barrel will aid flying to the intended target. Increase velocity and possibly the mix will not hold up to the acceleration by more powder or even a faster burning powder. Recovered bullets tell an interesting story about what happened inside the barrel.
Mike in Peru

Mike is Dead On.

It still fascinates me the way my 1917 5 groove, 2 and 4 groove barrels handle different bullets.

I know that rifles with the same rifling prefer different diameter bullets or slightly different powder charges but the most striking observation is that the rifling determines the style of bullet each prefers.
I have two of each of the above mentioned rifles so I now know that rather than it being a certain preference of a particular rifle it is a preference of the style of rifling to a particular bullet.

Not well said but I think you can get the idea.


 

Ian

Notorious member
I've not yet shot cast in long guns, only revolvers and 1911's...but I'm sneaking up on it. I understand the concepts behind sizing to the throat v. sizing to the bore. In revolvers, we do same, tho success is generally predicated upon the throat size / groove size relationship being appropriate, i.e. the throat diameter is ideally only about .001 larger than groove diameter. What I'm curious about regarding sizing to a rifle's throat is, if said throat is significantly larger than the groove diameter, and we swage a big fat throat sized bullet down the bore, where does all that lead go and how does it affect steerage in flight?

Fit the bullet to the throat unless you want to be stuck in the 14-1600 fps world. Where the displaced metal goes depends on how the bullet is designed, what you make it out of, and how you launch it: Meaning pressure curve and alloy composition/temper. This goes way beyond the kindergarten-level of two-dimensional fit discussed in the Lyman and Lee manuals.

To make accurate bullets fly you have to do two things: Make them balanced and concentric and get them into the bore absolutely straight. How are you going to get a bullet into the bore straight if it isn't supported, or static alignment is crooked or off-center?

Here's another question for you: Where does the metal go when you shove a .308" jacketed bullet through a .307" bore with six, .299" lands? Ever wonder why your measured BC at 500 yards doesn't match the drop tables? The bullet metal displaces during engraving and it changes shape. Same goes for your cast bullets. The elongate under compression and metal will flow in the path of least resistance. Don't worry about that, just worry about supporting as much of that bullet as you can at the very first part of it's travel out of the case...and making sure that the alloy and powder work together to slug that bullet up in the throat and swage it straight into the bore.
 

Paden

Active Member
Fit the bullet to the throat unless you want to be stuck in the 14-1600 fps world. Where the displaced metal goes depends on how the bullet is designed, what you make it out of, and how you launch it: Meaning pressure curve and alloy composition/temper. This goes way beyond the kindergarten-level of two-dimensional fit discussed in the Lyman and Lee manuals.

To make accurate bullets fly you have to do two things: Make them balanced and concentric and get them into the bore absolutely straight. How are you going to get a bullet into the bore straight if it isn't supported, or static alignment is crooked or off-center?

Here's another question for you: Where does the metal go when you shove a .308" jacketed bullet through a .307" bore with six, .299" lands? Ever wonder why your measured BC at 500 yards doesn't match the drop tables? The bullet metal displaces during engraving and it changes shape. Same goes for your cast bullets. The elongate under compression and metal will flow in the path of least resistance. Don't worry about that, just worry about supporting as much of that bullet as you can at the very first part of it's travel out of the case...and making sure that the alloy and powder work together to slug that bullet up in the throat and swage it straight into the bore.
I should have prefaced my question better. I wasn't intending to challenge anyone's methods or results, and not disputing that a bullet needs a straight, well balanced launch... Just thinking out loud, I guess. I was contemplating a bullet in flight, wherein it's shape, balance, CG, and drag profile significantly effects it's flight characteristics... and wondering what happens to a given bullet's flight characteristics when we swage it through a bore, which in some cases is many thousands smaller than the bullet's diameter, effectively (and perhaps randomly?) altering it's shape, balance, CG, and drag profile. Seems very few know what their projectile actually looks like after it exits the muzzle... In the case of the old military guns, we design moulds / cast bullets with intent of them fitting throats, and subsequently mash the hell out of them in much smaller bores without really intentionally accounting up front in our original design engineering for all that lead which is going to be displaced. Tho, perhaps some bullet designers/shooters do attempt to account for such, but just don't actively discuss it much. A curiosity. External ballistics is at least as important as internal ballistics, and changes to the latter must invariably affect the former.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
Sorry if I came off as abrupt, I do that when I'm trying to distill facts and not ramble on for pages. As far as external ballistics go, you're right, it can change a bunch, but it really doesn't matter that much as long as you know what it is unless the bullet style reacts negatively or you're riding the edge of the ballistics envelope at very long ranges. Yes, SOME designs take into account metal displacement, which does interesting and counter-intuitive things sometimes. Like you'd maybe think that a sharp front band like on a Keith SWC would be swept back slightly as it squeezed down and got engraved...but it doesn't, it crushes down equally in the forward direction as it does to the rear. The MP or BRP "30 Silhouette" can change shape a very great amount when fired, more if launch pressure is high and alloy is ductile. The nose gets fatter, the bearing surface in front of the lube groove flows back toward the lube groove a little, and the rear driving band widens both toward the lube groove and the check, while the lube shank remains unchanged. So the BC is greatly altered after firing, but it does so the same way every shot so it doesn't really matter. Some bullets, those whose CG/CP relationship is borderline to begin with, go absolutely wonky in flight after being squeezed through the bore.

I was harping about the straight launch thing again because it keeps coming up that fitting a parallel nose to ride the lands and fitting parallel driving bands to be a light swage fit in groove diameter is the whole deal, and I consider it a monumental waste of time to even consider a bullet in those terms. That isn't "fit" at all, because such a bullet usually (not always, but almost so) is likely to never fit any part of the gun at all, at any point, and all the unsupported parts can easily become a mess before the bullet even makes it fully into the rifling. Fit, to me, means fit the bullet to the throat, following all curves and angles in such a way that it will self-align to dead-center shortly after launch within the small tolerances necessary to all fixed ammunition. The faster you go, the more important this becomes.
 

Paden

Active Member
Sorry if I came off as abrupt...
Understood. I do same.

I was harping about the straight launch thing again because it keeps coming up that fitting a parallel nose to ride the lands and fitting parallel driving bands to be a light swage fit in groove diameter is the whole deal, and I consider it a monumental waste of time to even consider a bullet in those terms. That isn't "fit" at all, because such a bullet usually (not always, but almost so) is likely to never fit any part of the gun at all, at any point, and all the unsupported parts can easily become a mess before the bullet even makes it fully into the rifling. Fit, to me, means fit the bullet to the throat, following all curves and angles in such a way that it will self-align to dead-center shortly after launch within the small tolerances necessary to all fixed ammunition. The faster you go, the more important this becomes.
Got it. You make a good case. Permit me an additional hypothetical in same vein, just to play this all the way out: Given a reasonably well blueprinted action/chamber/barrel; and given once fired, neck-sized brass; and given a bullet sized to the bore/grooves but not the throat; and given said bullet is long enough/chamber short enough that said bullet is seated to engage the lands, tho not fill the chamber around it... You think any likelihood of a straight start, or still too much chance of yaw upon ignition, before becoming fully engraved?
 

Ian

Notorious member
All totally dependent upon whether the support system can remain centered during the rigors of launch, or not. Generally, such a system is good for pretty decent accuracy within the window of BHN/pressure that Richard Lee relates in Modern Reloading, 2nd ed., at least that is what I've found to be true over and over again.

When the rigors of launch surpass the ability of a weakly-guided bullet to remain straight during the transition into the rifling, then you get such notions as "rpm theory" or "stripping the rifling" theory or "35-bhn-to-accuracy" theory, which are nothing more than superstitious explanations for poor cartridge fitment techniques and improper powder/alloy matches.

Here's a perfect example of what I mean: Rifle is a .308 Winchester bolt-action with 20" bull barrel and a SAAMI-spec chamber and throat. First loads are with Unique and 2400 powder, no filler, 311041 (actually a Lee group buy copy that's even better). Using factory Federal brass, fireformed and neck sized, accuracy was in the 1" range for ten shots at 100 yards, sometimes better depending on the exact charge of powder. Unlike longer, thinner barrels this rifle didn't exhibit huge swings in group shape and size with the .2-grain increments workup with Unique. Unique got up to about 1450 fps before groups started going away, right where the Lee formula would indicate. 2400 got to almost 1700 fps before groups fell apart. Reloder 7 didn't shoot well at all with that bullet or alloy, so WW748 was tried and I managed to achieve about 1900 fps with the bullet and alloy before groups fell apart. Now, at that point, using conventional fitment, alloy, and loading methods, I was stuck. I tried every which way from Sunday to keep groups under an inch and go faster, it just wasn't going to happen I tried water-quenched bullets, some harder alloy, much slower powders, on and on, no dice. Some would say that I had reached the limit of my system due to the "rpm threshold" of a ten-twist .30 caliber rifle. So what was REALLY going on? I asked myself. Well, take a look at the system. Factory brass leaves .006" all around the case neck in the chamber with .310" bullets. At launch pressures that push the bullet beyond 1900 fps, something could be going wrong there. So I proceed to make some cases out of military blank brass which have really thick necks. I got the chamber neck clearance down to a thousandth of an inch total. I was able to get a little more velocity and still achieve my MOA goal, but really about 2100 fps was it. There are a lot of holes in my notes and memory at this point as my experimentation outpaced my interest in keeping notes, but the gist is that the bullet, even though it lightly engraved the rifling, had an intermediate band that touched the tapered part of the leade, and was sized to throat entrance diameter and further was supported with virtually no clearance in the chamber neck, wasn't getting the job done any more. So I switched bullets and tried several, two of which ultimately worked. One was one of my own design, the Accurate 30-185G, and the other, the MP 30 Silhouette which is a proven high-velocity shooter IF you know what you are doing. When I first tried the MP bullet, at 2100 fps, I was getting scattergun groups, it was terrible. After trying a variety of powders I finally switched alloy and started using a 21 bhn version of mixed WW/pure with 1% tin (later I discovered the tin addition was a mistake). Long story short, I was able to get into the 22s with accuracy using H335 and 748, but NOT using 3031 or 4320. Hmmm, single-base powders were a no-go, interesting. So on to H4350 I went and groups blew up again. Finally, I switched to H414 and was able to get my system up to nearly 2400 fps with repeatable, MOA accuracy. Just for grins, I switched back to Federal brass and groups went to hell again. I tried just changing alloy to water-quenched WW and groups again fell apart. I tried air-cooled WW + 2% tin and not only did groups fall apart, but I got some leading. The only thing I didn't test that I should have was the 311041 cast of water-quenched 50/50 alloy with my otherwise successful 2380 fps load of H414 and blank brass. Also, I haven't gotten the 30 Silhouette bullet to shoot any better than the 311041 at much lower velocities using Unique, but I'm sure that's just a matter of not having spent the time to learn what alloy would have worked best with that bullet, chamber, and powder combination.

So what was going on? Really, it comes down to controlling bullet deformation. At a certain point, about 1900-2000 fps, you have to go to a really hard alloy to keep your accuracy because the bullet is starting to deform in unwanted ways at those pressures, AND the twist rate of the gun is spinning the bullet fast enough that those balance defects start to really show up (rpm theory). But just making the bullet harder and harder to resist deformation isn't the full solution here, so a totally different approach is necessary: Work WITH the deformation, rather than fight against it. This is where most people go wrong with their approach and thinking. A lead bullet that's hard enough to resist deformation from poor fit when launched at 2400 fps has a host of other problems associated with being too hard, and those affect accuracy. Slip-stop in the bore, lack of abrasion resistance (micro-flaking causing excess antimony wash/leading), cracking and brittleness, and lack of ability to flex and soak up inconsistencies in the barrel all contribute to erratic barrel time and the Harmonics Monster gets you. The answer, I found, is to find a bullet shape which WILL deform, but do so in a controlled and guided manner, and go ahead and deform it with a powder that does just enough, but not too much "bumping". H414 at 23-2400 fps in a .308 happened to be the right stuff to push the .30 Silhouette into the throat gently enough to allow it to self-center, and bump it hard enough as it engraved to keep it sealed and perfectly conforming to the barrel as it made the transition to the rifling, and the alloy was tough yet flexible enough to make the trip through the barrel smoothly and repeatably without sloughing off bits of alloy everywhere like Linotype and other hard alloy compositions are wont to do. This works just one way, change one thing a little and it falls apart. Many will say what I did was impossible because they haven't taken the time to learn just what combinations work themselves, only try a few things without knowledge of what they need to achieve and give up when all they get are scattergun groups.

Once I learned a little bit about fit, alloy, and pressure curve and started getting better results at well above the "normal" velocities associated with cast bullets, it became difficult for me to reverse-think back to conventional, two-parallel-diameter bullets and focusing on bore and groove diameter as fitment criteria. That method works up to a point, but really it has a lot of limitations. Even the CBA guys, at modest velocities, do not use the "two dimensional" bullet fit concept because it will not achieve competitive accuracy. Those fellows are precisely fitting their bullets to match throat shape, and are putting as little of the bullet in the case neck as they can. They generally use very hard bullets, too, but are keeping them down in the velocity range where sloughing isn't really a problem.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Ian,
You are a true master! I love reading , no i must say, Absorbing what you write! Just in the above ; you give us so much information from your experience.
I guess that is why I'm here now....I'm still learning so much! Thank You
Jim
 

Ian

Notorious member
No, Jim, far from it. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night. True masters are men like frnkeore and Outpost75 who have spent a long lifetime perfecting their knowledge of the art.
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
Well written stuff. Sort of makes me glad I don't own or shoot any ARs. Nothing against them, just prefer bolt actions, single shots, and levers.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
the AR rifles are just another problem looking to be solved.
you have to forget the tight fit treatment and go to a boolit shape that works on the run with a nose that will do the alignment after making it across the gap.
[one that has a T/C type but radiused shape]

take a look at the ranch dog molds they are designed to make it across the Marlin gap [its a big area in front of the chamber that relieves pressure but mucks up anything lead trying to flump across it without alignment or support]
anyway they rely on their nose shape and girth to make the bullets work like they do.

the AR rifles just take a different approach but you can shoot them at near jacketed velocity's with good [for the rifle] accuracy.