Plain base in rifle

[Sendaro]

Ben that reply I just posted was meant for you. I screwed up and wrote Brad. Brad, thanks for your input.

Sendaro

 

[Ben]

Sendaro,

I don't type so well either until I've had my 2nd or 3rd cup of coffee.

Best to you,
Ben

 

[KHornet]

One of the things I really like about Ben's getting me to shoot PB bullets at 50 yds is it
saves time and energy in walking to 50 instead of 100. Ben is right also on the fact that
if it won't shoot at 50 it sure won't shoot at 100.

Paul

 

[quicksylver]

Sendero..welcome....I shoot primarily at 100 yds....most recently using plain base bullets..
I do so to maintain my competitive edge...through the last 40 years I participated in about every disipline there is in the shooting sport...I particularly like shooting 200 yds ( the longest available for club matches around here) mostly because fewer people show up..

The other reason I don't shoot at 50 yds is because the targets look so big and I think "oh heck can't miss" and then do because i'm over confident...

Sure wouldn't mind putting a few rounds through those guns you mentioned..sold all mine. ..Dan S

 

[Sendaro]

Quicksylver, For many years I've been a chuck hunter. Shooting chucks at distance has been a most enjoyable time afield for me. Many of the places where I could shoot at distances in excess have dried up or people have taken up living in what was once hay fields. Trying to shoot distance with cast bullets has presented me with a challenge in casting and load development that I welcome. When I refer to distance It starts at 500 yards and on out for my jacketed bullet long range rifles. Now I want to see just what I can do with cast bullets. I've made it to 500 yards but not with the accuracy that I would like. I'm working on that part now, and have much fun. I will continue chasing this for as many years as God gives and I can still be in health and right mind.

Thank you for the WELCOME.

Sendaro

 

[popper]

Upped the 30/30 load to 10.5 unique. Windy today and crowded. Even with the bad flinch & fist under the stock I think I can go to 11gr. - 10 & 10 1/2 look about the same.` Got the BO pistol working, set handle on the bench and other hand maneuvered the front bag, 170PB running ~1600.

 

[Str8shot426]

Got it! 7.5 grains unique, air cooled WW+2%.
The marlin loves it. Let's see if the 340 savage likes it too!

On the 50 yard question, I shoot 50 yards exclusively even though I have a 200 yard range on my property. I am a iron sight guy, and will be until my eyes say otherwise. I find the most pleasure shooting this distance.

 

[Maven]

8.5 - 9.0gr. Blue Dot is another option, Str8s....

 

[popper]

Tried the 11 gr. Unique PB vs 16g 2400 GCd (old RD). 35mph gusty wind didn't allow real good groups but they shot about the same. Primers started to flatten a tad with the Unique load. Should be getting close to my 1600 fps goal. Oh, 336 30/30, all PCd

 

[Reed]

Try a slower powder. Maybe 2400 or even RE 7. Fast pressure rise is possibly leading to gas cutting on base before it can fully obturate in the bore. Let the pressure rise slower so the base is in the bore before the peak pressure is hit.
Another option is to go to a lighter charge of a faster powder.
Welcome to learning about how pressure curve, bullet design, and alloy all play together. Sometimes they play nice, soemthiems they don't. Key is learning how to manipulate them to get along.

I loaded some 120gr PBFN (Lyman 3118, now 311008) in my Model 94, thinking it would be a cute little plinking load. Size was .311. Alloy was 50/50 WW/PL. Lube was 3 light coats of JPW/LLA tumble lube. Brass was annealed, neck sized, previously fired in the gun. Based on a very old article in The NRA Illustrated Handbook (1962), I loaded two rounds of each 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, and 3.5 grains of 700X. The article was "Ultra Light Rifle Loads." It talked about loading 1 to 2 grains of Bullseye. I figured 700X is only slightly slower. Why not see what happens? I brought my steel rod along in case my bottom loads were a little too slow and didn't find their way out of the bore. The old gun has a really nice, smooth bore. I also decided to leave the bore a little oily. Good thing, considering the velocity of my first load. It was 30 degrees out and I walked down and replaced the target between each "group," so the gun stayed cool. Here are the chronograph results and the distances between rounds at 50 yards:

1.5 gr 425 fps strike of rounds was too low to determine (But they did exit the bore! I have other rifles that I know they wouldn't have.)
2.0 gr 530 fps 0.266" apart
2.5 gr 638 fps 1.3" apart
3.0 gr 793 fps 3.213" apart
3.5 gr 901 fps 3.976" apart

I've been pretty puzzled by the ever-widening results as the load increased, when velocities are so moderate. It wasn't until the 3.0 gr load that the case necks sealed and stopped being so sooty. That's also where the biggest increase in velocity happened, and it's also the point where the holes got really far apart. Probably the point where there was enough pressure for an efficient burn?? There was no leading. When this thread popped up in a Google search, it got me thinking about what Brad and Ben are saying. Too much pressure before the bullet gets going? Gas cutting as the 700X starts becoming efficient? I know the original post is about a bigger bullet and Unique. The recommendations were to go to a slower powder or reduce velocity. My most accurate results aren't at a very practical velocity, so I'm left with following the slower powder advice. I'm actually considering Unique. Maybe Unique is a little too fast for good results with a bigger bullet, but it's certainly slower than 700X, and might be a good thing for this lighter bullet. I know it's hard to draw conclusions based on 2-round groups, but I think the pattern is there. Any thoughts (other than I was crazy to load such a light load)?

 

[Rick]

Welcome Reed, what a beautiful part of the country your in. Hhmmm . . . Having fun and trying to learn something doesn't sound crazy to me. I can't offer advice here cause it's an area I haven't delved into but that doesn't make it less interesting. Thanks for posting your results and observations.

 

[Sendaro]

Thoughts on light loads in the 30-30 Winchester, why yes! I have many years ago developed a light load that was a great short range plinker & squirrel load. This was a load that I shot in a pre WWII Win 94. It was made with cases that had been fired in my rifle, and not resized. I simply de-primed and re-primed the un-sized case. Next the case received a 3 grain charge of Bulls Eye. The projectile was a OO buck shot seated flush in the neck of the case. This was done with a bolt screwed in the press. Alox bullet lube was then mushed into the case neck over the buck shot. It was accurate out to 30 yards and not all that loud. I did this back in the 1970's before chronographs were as abundant and inexpensive as they are today, so I have no idea what the velocity may have been, but it was plenty enough to dispatch woodchucks and squirrels.

Sendaro

 

[JWFilips]

Sendaro,
I have done similar with my 35 Rem Marlin 336 But I use a small 125 gr lead pistol bullet in fired unsized cases with 3 grains of Bullseye. They are bevel base so it is easy to start them in the cases with your fingers. I do only load these as single shot (not in the tube magazine because I don't even crimp them)
Very accurate up to 50 yds and have taken a 30 lb Raccoon with one shot .....stopped in his tracks
Jim

 

[Sendaro]

Hi Jim, I only loaded then single shot and never in the tube mag. I've also shot the same load out of a .308 and that fun also. There is a place for these loads and I believe it's plinking, and dispatching critters where noise is also a consideration.

 

[JWFilips]

Noise is a factor! I took that raccoon from my backdoor in the suburbs at twilight. Probably sounded like a little firecracker to the neighbors!
More humane and less noise then a 22 lr

 

[johnnyjr]

The question about 50 yards? :
Well many of my plain base loads use very light charges and are subsonic or nearly so. As Ben mentioned; that distance is a good one for evaluating loads (like these) because of less wind problems.
I also can see and hold better at a target at 50 yards....which in turn increases my satisfaction and enjoyment.

Sometimes I do enjoy shooting shooting my GEW98 with medium plain base loads at 200yd with receiver sights ( waiting to hear the kerpunk) But I still enjoy it better at 50 yards shooting a 3" bull.
I do shoot my 223 and 243 at long distances but with gas checked bullets ( never got plain base to work well with those calibers)
If we were allowed to shoot steel on our range I would give it a try at long distance but since targets can only be paper I shoot for my enjoyment
Jim

Yes. Now I'm catching the bug. Your right. If it doesn't shoot at 50 it wouldn't at 200.I really appreciate the information I have gained from you guys.

 

[Snakeoil]

You have this knack of reviving ancient threads and replying like it is current. I get the feeling you spend a lot of time reading various threads here. Nuthin' wrong with that!


Sendero was a good friend of mine. He passed 2 years ago and is sorely missed at Wilton. Don't expect a reply from him.

I read his posts with great interest. Ever the gentleman and never blowing his own horn. What many here probably did not know is that he was a very accomplished benchrest shooter. He's won serious matches with lesser rifles than the other competitors because he knew how to make his shoot. He also wrote the book about the history of Pine Tree Gun Club, where benchrest was born. He was friends with names like Harvey Donaldson and Doc Moretti. John was very knowledgeable on several subjects besides shooting. He had an arrowhead collection that was quite impressive. He also had an ammo collection that would would occasionally share at Wilton. He'd pack up some special rounds and then put them out for all to see on match days. John learned how to shoot cast bullets well and mirrored his benchrest success in cast bullet matches. He was normally the guy to beat at Wilton and more often than not, you did not beat him. But the only way you'd know he won was to look at the score sheet because he'd never mention it unless asked.

The 20X Unertl I have was John's. All his 44-1/2 rifles, CPA and original Stevens are still with us at Wilton and belong to his brother or his good friend and my friend Craig.

John was a very happy man, in spite of going thru an ugly divorce and getting pretty much taken to the cleaners. But he laughed it off. He was the guy you always wanted to see when you walked into Charlie's Gun Shop or the club because you knew you'd have a good time that day. I learned a lot from John, sometimes by just watching him shoot. Oh, one other tidbit about the man. He was a right handed shooter but suffered an eye injury that pretty much ruined the vision in his right eye. So, he had to teach himself to shoot left handed. I did not know him when he was a RH shooter. I shoot LH as well so that was another reason for us to bond. When I learned he'd taught himself to shoot LH and did as well as he did, that was just another reason to truly respect the man's abilities.

His ashes are buried in the 300 yd berm at Wilton. We put him there in honor of him creating our Silver Bullet Match. If you hit all 10 targets at 300 yds, you get a silver bullet.

 

[johnnyjr]

You have this knack of reviving ancient threads and replying like it is current. I get the feeling you spend a lot of time reading various threads here. Nuthin' wrong with that!


Sendero was a good friend of mine. He passed 2 years ago and is sorely missed at Wilton. Don't expect a reply from him.

I read his posts with great interest. Ever the gentleman and never blowing his own horn. What many here probably did not know is that he was a very accomplished benchrest shooter. He's won serious matches with lesser rifles than the other competitors because he knew how to make his shoot. He also wrote the book about the history of Pine Tree Gun Club, where benchrest was born. He was friends with names like Harvey Donaldson and Doc Moretti. John was very knowledgeable on several subjects besides shooting. He had an arrowhead collection that was quite impressive. He also had an ammo collection that would would occasionally share at Wilton. He'd pack up some special rounds and then put them out for all to see on match days. John learned how to shoot cast bullets well and mirrored his benchrest success in cast bullet matches. He was normally the guy to beat at Wilton and more often than not, you did not beat him. But the only way you'd know he won was to look at the score sheet because he'd never mention it unless asked.

The 20X Unertl I have was John's. All his 44-1/2 rifles, CPA and original Stevens are still with us at Wilton and belong to his brother or his good friend and my friend Craig.

John was a very happy man, in spite of going thru an ugly divorce and getting pretty much taken to the cleaners. But he laughed it off. He was the guy you always wanted to see when you walked into Charlie's Gun Shop or the club because you knew you'd have a good time that day. I learned a lot from John, sometimes by just watching him shoot. Oh, one other tidbit about the man. He was a right handed shooter but suffered an eye injury that pretty much ruined the vision in his right eye. So, he had to teach himself to shoot left handed. I did not know him when he was a RH shooter. I shoot LH as well so that was another reason for us to bond. When I learned he'd taught himself to shoot LH and did as well as he did, that was just another reason to truly respect the man's abilities.

His ashes are buried in the 300 yd berm at Wilton. We put him there in honor of him creating our Silver Bullet Match. If you hit all 10 targets at 300 yds, you get a silver bullet.

Beautiful story. Sounds like a great man. Thanks for sharing it. My son had to learn how to shoot left handed as well. It's quite an accomplishment to do that. Thanks again for the story.. john

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

For whatever it it worth.........I've had zero success in shooting a gas checked design cast bullet without a gas check !

On the other hand, a true plain base with the right powder charge , seated to the correct OAL, with the right primer , right alloy , sized the correct diameter, now that is another story entirely.

Ben

Exact same here.

The single times gc bullet W/O a gc have been acceptable was with very light powder puff loadings.

Since PC I dont buy many if at all gc molds. And have converted 6-8 to a non gc base. Now I dont generally drive past 1900 ish. With 18-1850 fps is my target for a hunting load.

If a target plinker ACCURACY 100% drives the load.

CW

 

[johnnyjr]

I'm not having any luck with this. I've been trying the noe 311041 PB bullet cast of Lyman #2 out of my marlin 30/30. This gun bug holes the lee 170's with gas check. The standard 10 grain charge of Unique makes the noe shoot all over. Any suggestions?

Try a softer alloy. I'm using close to pure lead,but at extreme low velocity. I have not run them over the Chrono yet.