Random thought and questions.

[Petrol & Powder]

There is no doubt that Krupp benefited from the high-quality Swedish iron ore they had access to. Not only did Krupp make extremely good steel, but they also made lots of it.

The U.S.A. had huge deposits of high-quality ore in Michigan and Minnesota that was close to the Great Lakes. That made shipping large amounts of ore economical. Coal and Coke from Pennsylvania and West Virginia was the other half of that perfect supply chain. The steel mills between those sources of raw materials, coupled with railroads and ships made U.S. steel production extremely cost effective and with huge volumes.

Krupp Steel in Germany had similar logistics. High quality iron ore plus nearby coal, rivers, sea ports and rail service.

 

[CZ93X62]

I view the S&W Model 29-series revolvers as "44 Special +P" platforms. Taking the Lyman #429421 SWC Keith design as a template, 1200 FPS from a 4" barrel is about as much fun as I can stand anyway in those relatively light revolvers. Uncle Elmer was right, '1200 FPS is all you need'. Interestingly, the new-standard SAAMI pressure guidelines (c. 1990) for the 357/41/44 Magnum revolver calibers impart a bit over 1200 FPS to 240 grain bullets. You can't compare PSI to LUP/CUP accurately or predictably, but you can discern that post-1990 ammo is not as vigorous as the Old School stuff was.

If you want 1935-level 357 ammo, L/N-frame S&Ws or Rugers are the ticket. My 44 Mags are Bisley BH and a Redhawk. Heavy? Sure. That soaks up recoil nicely, and I didn't notice that weight when I pointed it toward an unseen black bear in a berry tangle 20 years ago, perhaps 12-15 yards off the muzzle. CHUFF CHUFF CHUFF, BLEEP THAT! The revolver seemed remakably light, and I wished at the time for something heavier and perhaps belt-fed.

 

[Ian]

Yep, 8 grains of Unique is about perfect for a .44 Model 29. I may have exaggerated slightly, but a steady diet of anything over 30K psi in .44 caliber or better isn't going to do those N-frames any favors. The Model 25 is IMO just about the perfect balance of firepower, size, heft, and caliber for a wheelgun, although I'm starting to think the .41 guys really have it figured out. Ruger made the small-frame "new" Vaquero in .44 Magnum as well as the .45 Colt (I have one of the latter and a previous employer of mine had a .44 which we both enjoyed except for the "knuckle"). He'd shot lots and lots of Elmer .44 loads through his and never had a problem, mine has seen a bit of +P (about 20K actually) and seems unfazed, brass just falls out of the cylinder.

 

[Bret4207]

Agree, I like my '17 Smiff 45AR. I tried a few of those hotter Unique loads but 6.5 and the 45BD bullet seem like a nice compromise between wimpy and stupid. After dropping a few cattle with that load, and a similar load in 44 Special with the 421, I'm happy there.

Exaggeration used for getting a point across or for humor is no sin! In fact, it's an art! Ask Mark Twain.

 

[Ian]

@Bret4207 , I agree on Twain, a true genius. Forgot to add above that the H110/jax thing was my FIL when it was his. I'd messed with it a bit and got it shooting great with a PB 421 after installing a red dot scope on it (hit the bottom of a soda can every time at 100 yards from bags). I gave it back to him with a couple boxes of loaded ammo but he wanted to "save that" and already had bought a bunch of brass and bullets and put together some loads out of the book. It was absolutely brutal to shoot like that from bags, and much later after he died I discovered the bulge when going through his collection for the MIL. Not a stuck bullet, just too much pressure on the barrel and it gave up ahead of the frame. I did shoot it some to see how it would do and and other than leading in that one spot it still shoots fine. I also have one of his silhouette revolvers with the bull barrel and shrouded sights built on a rusted-out 1917 Brazilian frame, it has the same bulge and in fact the frame threads are expanded toward the front significantly as well. I suspect overloading done for knock-down power at distance. The cylinder is fine but the barrel and frame couldn't take the pressure.

 

[RicinYakima]

S&W went to the hardened frame for the 32/20 in 1919 and the "N" frames in 1927l. Barrel steel is very soft and safe as it will expand and not blow up. Folks tried to make something out of these guns they just weren't designed to do. Of course, folks still do that today.

 

[Brad]

That is why I have Rugers. The S&W get moderate loads. The Rugers too. But heavy loads stay in a Ruger.

 

[Bret4207]

@Bret4207 , I agree on Twain, a true genius. Forgot to add above that the H110/jax thing was my FIL when it was his. I'd messed with it a bit and got it shooting great with a PB 421 after installing a red dot scope on it (hit the bottom of a soda can every time at 100 yards from bags). I gave it back to him with a couple boxes of loaded ammo but he wanted to "save that" and already had bought a bunch of brass and bullets and put together some loads out of the book. It was absolutely brutal to shoot like that from bags, and much later after he died I discovered the bulge when going through his collection for the MIL. Not a stuck bullet, just too much pressure on the barrel and it gave up ahead of the frame. I did shoot it some to see how it would do and and other than leading in that one spot it still shoots fine. I also have one of his silhouette revolvers with the bull barrel and shrouded sights built on a rusted-out 1917 Brazilian frame, it has the same bulge and in fact the frame threads are expanded toward the front significantly as well. I suspect overloading done for knock-down power at distance. The cylinder is fine but the barrel and frame couldn't take the pressure.

Wowsers! I can't imagine pushing things that hard.

 

[Bret4207]

That is why I have Rugers. The S&W get moderate loads. The Rugers too. But heavy loads stay in a Ruger.

It's a trade off IMO. Do you want the feel and handling of a Smith (or Colt if you prefer) or do you want the strength of a Ruger/Freedom/whatever? I guess if I needed to defend myself against charging rhinos, hippos, big bears, etc I'd be more inclined to gravitate towards the heavier guns. But for packing around in a holster in the northeast where my biggest target is likely to be Wile E. Coyote and the most dangerous animal is a resident of Methena NY or one of the local weed gardeners/converter thieves, something lighter is perfectly adequate.

 

[RBHarter]

The joy of owning 357s and Rugers is that the most spirited 38+P+ and full tilt standard loads aren't likely to damage anything.

 

[Snakeoil]

I was sharing some thoughts with a member in a private message and one was a shooter I knew back when we ran pin and plates shoots at another club. Actually we had 3 clubs in the area that would host a shoot every month during the summer. The shooter had a Mod 19 and for those events he shot really hot .357 load to clear the pins off the table with one hit. That gun was really loose for all that abuse. It held together, but I suspectc if you measured it new and then after it's duty as his pin gun, you could actually detect a bit more overall length.

We had another shooter who was not too bright and did not really understand the necessity for keeping within the pressure limits of reloads. He had a Govt Model in .38 Super and came up with his own "improved" recipe for reloads. During practice one day, he blew the mag out of the pistol and the grip off one side of the gun. The grips were rubber Pachmayrs with the metal insert. Good thing or he would have filled his hand with wood splinters had they been stock. Screwed his hand up a bit, but not serious. We did not see him as much after that. Not sure if he was too embarrassed to shoot in events anymore or too scared. I know that none of us would stand next to him on the practice range after that. We'd always let him shoot while we stood back and watched. Fortunately, he did not have a repeat occurrence.

There is an old Smith .38spc (I think it was Mod 10) in Frank's Gun Shop on the counter with the top strap blown away and half the cylinder missing. That had to be an interesting experience. I can see some dufus thinking he could fit a .357 load into a .38 case.

 

[Bret4207]

I've been in more than one gun shop with various make handguns, revolvers and semi's, on display in wrecked condition!!! A surprising number were allegedly done with factory loads.