RCBS 45-255KT vs Lyman 452424 Cast Bullet shootout!

[BigBearJoe]

RCBS 45 255 KT (left), Ficcochi 45 LCCA factory (middle), Lyman 452424 (right)
5 Colt Bullet Shootout

RCBS 45-255 KT cast lead bullet (257g lubed and sized) vs. Lyman 452424 cast bullet (253g lubed and sized) vs new Fiocchi 45 LCCA factory "cowboy action" coated ammo (250g lead coated per product label).

Well, I made it to the Big Bear Valley Sportsman's shooting range again today. It was beautiful weather. The project was to compare two different Elmer Keith style cast lead bullets, both loaded identically with 7.0 g Win 231 and CCI 300 large pistol primers. I had a box of new 250 g Fiocchi 250 g lead round nose flat point that came with a recent 1858 Remington New Army 44 percussion conversion gun purchase.

But anyhow, three groups of six shots each were fired from a S&W Model 25-7 from a Caldwell bag rest at 17 yards. Photos of thr targets are attached.

I have to give a slight edge in accuracy to the RCBS 45 255 KT bullet over the Lyman 452424. Both of the cast lead bullets did far better than the factory coated bullet.

RCBS - 2.0" group

Lyman 452424 - 3.1" group

Fiocchi 45 LCCA factory coated 250g cowboy loads - 4.3" group

*All groups fired from a Caldwell bag rest at 17 yds. Test gun S&W Model 25-7, 5" barrel

There are two main factors (at least) that I believe impact the differences in accuracy between these three bullet types, namely the bullet diameter and the overall cartridge length.

First, the RCBS is a 0.454" díameter bullet, whereas the other two are 0.452". My test gun seems to do better with the slightly larger diameter bullet. Second, Elmer Keith believed that a proper cast bullet for wheel guns should have more of the bullet weight protruding out of the brass case beyond the crimp groove than that weight which is inside the case. In this test all of the bullet weights were within 7 grains if one another, therefore the cartridge overall length (COAL) gives an indication for the relative amount of lead sticking out beyond the brass. The COALs are as follows:

RCBS - 1.662"
Lynan - 1.636"
Fiocchi - 1.548"

Therefore, the RCBS has more weight sticking out in front of the case crimp and has the shortest "jump" from cylinder to forcing cone of these three rounds.

The clear winner of today's range fun was RCBS! But the experiments will continue. I have good supplies of Unique, Tight Group, and 4227 on hand and will continue side-by-side comparisons of the RCBS and Lyman bullets using these powders

 

[BigBearJoe]

RCBS 45 255KT at 17 yds

 

[BigBearJoe]

Lyman 452424 at 17 yds, 3.1" group

 

[BigBearJoe]

Fiocchi 250 gr coated factory cowboy load

 

[Bret4207]

Be interesting to see the Keith sized larger.

 

[RBHarter]

Not throwing stones .

Accuracy tests should be done with one chamber, that removes 4-6 sets of variables right off . I never hold to that especially after a baseline expectation is established. I matched up the chambers in the RBH I still have one that throws one out , probably the big one I tried to match but .455 is too big when the other 5 are .4540-.4545

 

[462]

Be interesting to see the Keith sized larger.

Or the RCBS sized smaller.

Either way, both bullets need be sized the same to eliminate a variable.

 

[BigBearJoe]

Be interesting to see the Keith sized larger.

I sized the Lyman 452424 with both .452" and .454" sizers. With the 454" sizer only a few places along the mold seam even get touched. In contrast, the RCBS bullet gets totally sized on all surfaces with the 454" sizer. The RCBS definitely drops a larger diameter bullet than does the Lyman mold. I would like to find an old Ideal 454424 or H&G #501 old, the original Keith bullets. Some day I probably will come across them.

 

[BigBearJoe]

Not throwing stones .

Accuracy tests should be done with one chamber, that removes 4-6 sets of variables right off . I never hold to that especially after a baseline expectation is established. I matched up the chambers in the RBH I still have one that throws one out , probably the big one I tried to match but .455 is too big when the other 5 are .4540-.4545

Well, that all sounds good in theory, but I always load, carry, and shoot my sixgun with six rounds and all chambers loaded. The Fiocchi cowboy action loads strung out a lot, and to my way of thinking the cast lead RCBS bullet works best in my gun. At the end of the day, that's really all that needed to know. But it sure is fun experimenting

 

[Bret4207]

I sized the Lyman 452424 with both .452" and .454" sizers. With the 454" sizer only a few places along the mold seam even get touched. In contrast, the RCBS bullet gets totally sized on all surfaces with the 454" sizer. The RCBS definitely drops a larger diameter bullet than does the Lyman mold. I would like to find an old Ideal 454424 or H&G #501 old, the original Keith bullets. Some day I probably will come across them.

In that case I would have just sized .454 and let it go. You don't HAVE to "cut them down to size" as the late, great Al Miller said.

 

[Ian]

Head over to the rifle range and shoot 'em at 100 yards if you really want to know how they group. Get a big target and aim small.

 

[fiver]

or just slide the Lyman out forward some and see.

 

[Bret4207]

Well, that all sounds good in theory, but I always load, carry, and shoot my sixgun with six rounds and all chambers loaded. The Fiocchi cowboy action loads strung out a lot, and to my way of thinking the cast lead RCBS bullet works best in my gun. At the end of the day, that's really all that needed to know. But it sure is fun experimenting

Understood, but to figure out if it's the bullet or gun you have to limit the variations.

 

[Creeker]

Really like that RCBS bullet.

 

[BigBearJoe]

Be interesting to see the Keith sized larger.

The older Ideal 454424 was indeed intended to be sized 0.454" for the older Colt SSA's. It's my understanding that at some point after WW II, manufacturers began to standardize their 45 Colt guns to .0451 groove diameters and Lyman changed the mold diameter to 0.452". My later model S&W revolver made in 1980, for whatever reason, seems to prefer the 0.454" bullets. But it could be that it isn't necessarily the diameter, but possibly that the RCBS 45-255 KT actually has more bullet mass extending out beyond the case. I'm not really sure. I suppose on the next trial I could size the RCBS to 0.452" and see what happens

 

[BigBearJoe]

or just slide the Lyman out forward some and see.

good idea, only then it won't be crimped in the crimp groove. Even if it worked, I still wouldn't do it because it involves adjusting something to try to be as good of a bullet as another one that already works better.

 

[Missionary]

You could see if it will chamber on the first grease groove. But that may not be possible.

 

[Bret4207]

good idea, only then it won't be crimped in the crimp groove. Even if it worked, I still wouldn't do it because it involves adjusting something to try to be as good of a bullet as another one that already works better.

Well, do you want the best or the one that works good enough? The bullet doesn't have to be crimped int he crimp groove, or crimped at all for that matter. Seating out may make both shoot better, or not.

 

[BigBearJoe]

Well, do you want the best or the one that works good enough? The bullet doesn't have to be crimped int he crimp groove, or crimped at all for that matter. Seating out may make both shoot better, or not.

I kinda disagree with you on the part about the bullets not needing to be crimped at all. All revolver ammo should have the bullets crimped to keep them from pulling out during recoil and causing the cylinder to lock up. I've personally seen this happen before. This isn't so much of a problem with magazine fed semi-autos because the magazine keeps the bullets from moving outward during firing.

For me, I'm a firm believer in crimping in the crimp groove for revolvers, that's what it's there for. However, a couple of weeks ago I decided to test out a Pietta 1858 Remington new Army replica I have had for a few years now but never shot. I bought it used still in the box and it came with a 45 colt conversion cylinder. I made up some 45 colt blackpowder cartridges using the RCBS 45-255KT bullets over 32 grains FFFg Goex. The bullets were too long crimped in the groove so I crimped them over the forward (top) driving band to shorten them up to fit the cylinder. As it turns out, these shorter BP cartridges crimped above the driving band were surprisingly accurate in that gun! The only problem was that on the second cylinder-load, the cylinder started sticking around the cylinder pin. The cylinder still rotated and fired off the second set, but removing the cylinder after that second loading required a leather mallet and fresh water to dissolve the BP residue to pull the pin out. I never have had this problem shooting round balls with the other 1858 Remington I have, an Uberti. I'm thinking that the Alox used to lube the bullets mixed with blackpowder residue might have been the problem. Next time I'll try lubing the bullets for the blackpowder cartridges with SPG to see if that improves the situation any.

all good fun

 

[fiver]

it'll improve the situation about 99% better.

This isn't so much of a problem with magazine fed semi-autos because the magazine keeps the bullets from moving outward during firing.

the problem with them isn't out, it's in.
slip a couple of 9mm bullets back in the case and you won't have that pistol very long.
they simply ain't made to take 90-K more than once.