waco
Springfield, Oregon
My thoughts exactly.
Rifle Accuracy/PC/Hardness
- Thread starter 4and1
- Start date
L Ross
Well-Known Member
When you're checking out nail polish at Wal-Mart and the teen age young lady cashier raises an eye brow, you look her right in the eye and say, "Male Polish."
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
My lil brother makes jig heads and powder coats them. He warms them with a torch... runs them thru powder to coat. ( dosent want paint on hook steel) then hangs & bakes.
Works good for him. He made up some black fish jigs for me this fall worked awesome! Its a SUPER HEAVY SHORT SHANKED 3/0 hook W/2oz head. They are PURPOSEFULLY bounced on rocks to get attention. Paint held up great!!
I cant find a pic of his work. Last pic are ones bought so simular.
CW
Works good for him. He made up some black fish jigs for me this fall worked awesome! Its a SUPER HEAVY SHORT SHANKED 3/0 hook W/2oz head. They are PURPOSEFULLY bounced on rocks to get attention. Paint held up great!!
I cant find a pic of his work. Last pic are ones bought so simular.
CW
Well, all sarcasm aside and this is just my madness, I have played with a wide range of alloy combinations, from .223 to 50beo, I pour all my slugs to the BHN related to pressure. I lean to the toughness and not the direct hardness, I add a little lead arsenic to all my alloys and heat treat to reach the required hardness and toughness. I have pushed the 223 to over 2650fps with no issues. I load 308 just like fmj as do I also with pistol cal and I do not use GC's. all are powder coated. If you are interested in any alloy information pm me with cal and desired pressure.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
But it's not just Bhn you're looking at, you've already figured out it's about a lot more than just a number on a scale. You are working your dynamic fit by alloy, not just a single number on that scale. That's the part people can't seem to grasp. They seem to think that "Lead is lead is lead." No. I will never argue that changing an alloy through various methods might not be the exact ticket for getting higher velocity or better accuracy, but there's a lot more than just that one number that goes with it. I chased that number, getting up in the high 20's Bhn IIRC and it wasn't the answer I was looking for because I failed to see all the other variables involved. Tweaking those other variables got me up into the 23-2500 fps range with decent grouping. Then I figured out I didn't need or even want velocities that high in the rifle I was playing with. Lots less farting around with a softer, more user friendly alloy. For others a relatively hard alloy might be just the thing they need IF they understand all the other spices in the mix. But just having a higher Bhn isn't the answer unless you can quantify allt he other variables involved.
You are correct, malleability is a factor, required for proper expansion, reaching hardness by "alloy" alone can result in brittleness, the same "BHN" can be reached in many ways by varying the primary metals to get there. Depending on your desired outcome and a little knowledge of just how the individual metals act under pressure and impact, a little heat and arsenic to boost the reaction and a little luck just for the hell of it. I have gone from a gray puff to a good solid slug just to see what it will do. I have a lot more to learn and not enough time to learn it but I have figured out a few things. I have a strong engineering background and have been in the steel industry for 13 years now, I play with a lot of metals so i have learned some of how they react. Don't be afraid to experiment a little if nothing else you learn what doesn't work, keep your pressures reasonable and your not going to hurt your gun with any lead alloy bullet you can possible make. (unless its hugely oversized maybe).
Find a base formula and move your metals around a bit, make some a little brittle, make some a little soft, little more lead, little less tin, little more antimony, heat treat, vary temps and time. The best way to learn is make them and shoot them, no better way to do it than to get the feel of it when you make the changes. Keep notes and you will find what works best for you.
Ian
Notorious member
I routinely exceed the BHN/pressure formula by a factor of FOUR with powder-coated bullets, so I don't give that theory a whole lot of consideration. Even before I began coating my bullets my pressure vs. alloy strength levels were on t he order of two or three times what Lee recommends for peak accuracy....and I wasn't having accuracy troubles.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
I have found this thread just a bit ago and have found it very interesting. (it showed up in my news feed)
Trying to wrap my head around it because....
I have been playing around some with 50 yard .357 6 inch pistol loads, Alox, pan lube , and Powder coat.
Will take it further into rifles when I get another 30 caliber bolt or get my savage back.
I have been playing with Hardness testing then looking up the pressure level that distortion starts to happen in the bullet. Then I have been matching powders to get them to closest to that pressure. Example if distortion starts to happen at 2700 lb. per inch then I try to find a powder that will get me there in the middle of a published load.
Of course since I am green, I am sticking with printed data. Then I try to work at it.
I am finding that with traditional lube I find a very accurate load that way. Shooting for the point of elasticity and not permanent distortion. Using the traditional lubes.
I powder coated the same bullets sizing them the same after coating.As soon as I Powder coat the group opens up. But, If I add a few more grains powder. It closes back up, but not as good.
BUT... if I step up to a slightly faster powder I can find a node that shoots as well or better powder coated. It is some what higher pressure according to load data, but I can not find a constant.
This has been limited, and my results just may be a fluke, as I have been restricted a bit lately. I have not had the resources to prove or disprove anything farther.
I Kinda kringed about posting this, because I am new, and am probably an not ever speaking the right language. So forgive me if I am way out there. I am learning. But if someone can take anything away from this, or explain better my findings. it was worth my embarrassment.
I haven't gone any further with this yet as small pistol primer shortages and lack of a good 30 caliber rifle at the moment have stopped me.
Trying to wrap my head around it because....
I have been playing around some with 50 yard .357 6 inch pistol loads, Alox, pan lube , and Powder coat.
Will take it further into rifles when I get another 30 caliber bolt or get my savage back.
I have been playing with Hardness testing then looking up the pressure level that distortion starts to happen in the bullet. Then I have been matching powders to get them to closest to that pressure. Example if distortion starts to happen at 2700 lb. per inch then I try to find a powder that will get me there in the middle of a published load.
Of course since I am green, I am sticking with printed data. Then I try to work at it.
I am finding that with traditional lube I find a very accurate load that way. Shooting for the point of elasticity and not permanent distortion. Using the traditional lubes.
I powder coated the same bullets sizing them the same after coating.As soon as I Powder coat the group opens up. But, If I add a few more grains powder. It closes back up, but not as good.
BUT... if I step up to a slightly faster powder I can find a node that shoots as well or better powder coated. It is some what higher pressure according to load data, but I can not find a constant.
This has been limited, and my results just may be a fluke, as I have been restricted a bit lately. I have not had the resources to prove or disprove anything farther.
I Kinda kringed about posting this, because I am new, and am probably an not ever speaking the right language. So forgive me if I am way out there. I am learning. But if someone can take anything away from this, or explain better my findings. it was worth my embarrassment.
I haven't gone any further with this yet as small pistol primer shortages and lack of a good 30 caliber rifle at the moment have stopped me.
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Mitty38
Well-Known Member
FINE!
Ye, I know, late to the party and everyone else wants to go home. Story of my life.
Cadillac Jeff
Well-Known Member
I prefer minnows
1/2 time just on a #8 gold hook & split shot << not powder coated
Jeff
1/2 time just on a #8 gold hook & split shot << not powder coated
Jeff
Ian
Notorious member
Emmett and others who subscribe to the theory of loading so that peak pressure is just below the alloys ultimate compressive strength so that it doesn't distort, let me ask you this: What happens to your .311" bullet that is fired into a .300 x .308" barrel?
Bullet distorted, didn't it?
How much pressure did it take to do that?
What else went wrong with your bullet in the first half inch of movement, long before peak chamber pressure was even reached?
Bullet distorted, didn't it?
How much pressure did it take to do that?
What else went wrong with your bullet in the first half inch of movement, long before peak chamber pressure was even reached?
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Recently, a bullet thread drifted into a beer discussion.
So, with that in mind: My wife just told me, that come midnight new year's eve, Guiness will be announcing a new beer.