Testing the .45 Manstopper Today
- Thread starter Ben
- Start date
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
"According to the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), Level/Type IIIA body armor is designed to defeat a .357 Sig FMJ Flat Nose (FN) weighing less than 8.1 grams or 125 grain. The muzzle velocity must be under 1,470 ft/per second at this weight for a Level IIIA to stop the bullet. Level IIIA will also defeat a .44 Magnum Semi Jacketed Hollow Point (SJHP) if it weighs less than 15.6 grams (240 gr) and a muzzle velocity of slower than 1,430 ft/s. Level/Type IIIA armor that has been conditioned can defeat a .357 Sig FMJ FN weighing 125 grain, but with a reduced velocity of 1,410 ft/s. A .44 Magnum SJHP weighing 240 grain and a muzzle velocity of 1,340 ft/s will NOT penetrate a conditioned Level IIIA armor system."
But with that said, the blunt force trauma can break ribs, rupture spleens and make foot wide contusions. Not fun, but not stoppers on meth maggots.
But with that said, the blunt force trauma can break ribs, rupture spleens and make foot wide contusions. Not fun, but not stoppers on meth maggots.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
One of our deputies was saved by his IIIA vest from 4 point-blank 240 grain JHPs from a 44 Magnum a few years back. He spent several months healing up/in recovery, but he came back to work in good order. He was my Sergeant in the Detective Bureau at Moreno Valley for a time, and he eventually rose to be one of the Chief Deputies. Good man, in all respects.
I am not one to make broad-brush recommendations about what someone should carry in a defensive arm. Assess your environment and its variables, and choose an ammunition types suited to those conditions. Preferably this is a round that you can project accurately and decisively, on demand.
Since retirement in June 2005, I have had 2 incidents that came chillingly close to projection of lethal force, dissuaded ONLY by presence and deployment of a firearm. There have been a couple other incidents that we managed to avoid via surroundings awareness and evasion from same. Due to the state of our nation and its out-to-lunch leadership, I can think of no time in our history that had a greater concentration of free-range hairballs and drain clogs out and about among us. We all need to make sober assessments of our safety & security situations, and prepare for worst-case scenarios as clear & present remote possibilities.
I am not one to make broad-brush recommendations about what someone should carry in a defensive arm. Assess your environment and its variables, and choose an ammunition types suited to those conditions. Preferably this is a round that you can project accurately and decisively, on demand.
Since retirement in June 2005, I have had 2 incidents that came chillingly close to projection of lethal force, dissuaded ONLY by presence and deployment of a firearm. There have been a couple other incidents that we managed to avoid via surroundings awareness and evasion from same. Due to the state of our nation and its out-to-lunch leadership, I can think of no time in our history that had a greater concentration of free-range hairballs and drain clogs out and about among us. We all need to make sober assessments of our safety & security situations, and prepare for worst-case scenarios as clear & present remote possibilities.
Rick H
Well-Known Member
When we talk of bullet performance on "free range drain clogs and hair balls" we walk a fine line trying to find an optimum balance between expansion and penetration.
My experience with a pajama clad, rifle toting, heavily medicated mental patient: involved two 4" Model 66/19 S&W's mine with R/P158gr JHP's (the old 1975 era full power .357 Mag loading) and a fellow officer carrying Supervel 110gr JHP .357 magnum ammunition from the same era. My 158's showed minimal expansion, but penetrated a forearm and torso, a metal filing cabinet, and interior wall w/2 layers of drywall, and exterior wall of drywall, insulation sheathing and brick veneer....as far as anyone can tell they might still be flying. The Supervel's splashed on the surface creating ugly wounds perhaps 4-5" deep. The guy took 7 solid upper torso hits and never blinked, he smiled, turned around and raised his rifle pointing at my chest with his remaining good arm, then collapsed dead.
Both loads worked, eventually, but neither instilled any confidence. My answer was a compromise of WW 140gr. Silvertips in the .357Magnum until I obtained and qualified with a 45acp. My point in all this is the two similar handguns in the same caliber had the opposite performance in the same circumstance. The difference was ammo. We need enough penetration to reach and destroy vitals from any angle, and a big enough hole to maximize that damage. It is a balancing act between expansion (or big enough diameter to start with) and penetration. In any event it has to be delivered accurately and as quickly as possible.
My experience with a pajama clad, rifle toting, heavily medicated mental patient: involved two 4" Model 66/19 S&W's mine with R/P158gr JHP's (the old 1975 era full power .357 Mag loading) and a fellow officer carrying Supervel 110gr JHP .357 magnum ammunition from the same era. My 158's showed minimal expansion, but penetrated a forearm and torso, a metal filing cabinet, and interior wall w/2 layers of drywall, and exterior wall of drywall, insulation sheathing and brick veneer....as far as anyone can tell they might still be flying. The Supervel's splashed on the surface creating ugly wounds perhaps 4-5" deep. The guy took 7 solid upper torso hits and never blinked, he smiled, turned around and raised his rifle pointing at my chest with his remaining good arm, then collapsed dead.
Both loads worked, eventually, but neither instilled any confidence. My answer was a compromise of WW 140gr. Silvertips in the .357Magnum until I obtained and qualified with a 45acp. My point in all this is the two similar handguns in the same caliber had the opposite performance in the same circumstance. The difference was ammo. We need enough penetration to reach and destroy vitals from any angle, and a big enough hole to maximize that damage. It is a balancing act between expansion (or big enough diameter to start with) and penetration. In any event it has to be delivered accurately and as quickly as possible.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
140 gr is a great bullet weight for .357 mag. It has velocities very close to the 125 gr, and sectional density approaching 158 gr. A slightly slower expanding bullet seems wise. I really liked the original Hornady "cup & core" pre-XTP bullets in middle weights like this.
It just occurred to me that Ben could also load his hollowpoint backwards and pick up a bit on penetration. That would be a stunning reversal!
Okay Brad, it's your turn.
It just occurred to me that Ben could also load his hollowpoint backwards and pick up a bit on penetration. That would be a stunning reversal!
Okay Brad, it's your turn.
Tomme boy
Well-Known Member
I remember reading an article years ago about the 22 mag defeating most body armour. Something about the fmj and speed and not expanding it would zip right through the weave of the Kevlar.
This was around the same time we had an officer here that shot himself in the chest with his 9mm. Then claimed it was a non white male that did it. Went on for a week or so until the fbi came and arrested him. He was in the hospital for 2 days when this went down.
This was around the same time we had an officer here that shot himself in the chest with his 9mm. Then claimed it was a non white male that did it. Went on for a week or so until the fbi came and arrested him. He was in the hospital for 2 days when this went down.
USSR
Finger Lakes Region of NY
An interesting story regarding the Winchester 140gr. Silvertips in the .357Magnum. One morning many years ago, I was deer hunting from my tree stand when I heard a shot. A doe came towards me dragging it's hind leg, and promptly lay down about 20 feet from me. Figuring I would do the lousy shooter a favor and dispatch his wounded deer for him, I pulled out my 6" Model 686 which was loaded with the 140gr Silvertips. Since I was above the deer, the only shot I had was thru the deer's back side into the chest cavity. At my shot, the deer promptly got up and walked off. I was astounded! So, I went home for lunch and in the afternoon I returned to the same general area to hunt. I was on the ground now, and along comes a doe dragging it's leg. I put a 12 gauge slug thru it's chest and the deer was mine. While dressing it out at home, I found that 140gr Silvertip. This was a big doe with a lot of fat. The Silvertip went thru her hide on the back and was imbedded into that layer of fat/gristle. It never made it into the chest cavity. Needless to say, I lost all faith in the 140gr Silvertips, and promptly bought a S&W 25-5 in .45 Colt for further use against deer. Have never recovered a bullet on deer shot with the .45 Colt.
Don
Don
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I'm very, very happy to say I've never had to see if our issue vests would stop a bullet. Considering the one I wore for 18 years had an expiration date 13 years old, it wasn't anything I was going to volunteer for! OTOH, I can say that they are very handy in car accidents and when someone is trying to deliver bodyshots with his fists. They definitely soften the blow. I can also state they are real handy when crazy people have sharp, pointy objects in their hands! The downside they reek of BO after a while and they are not at all fun to wear while standing a roadblock in 100F + heat!
As far as ammo choices, anything is better than nuthin'. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
As far as ammo choices, anything is better than nuthin'. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Hmmm--that is a surprising result reported by USSR. I guess we should never say "NEVER" and never say "ALWAYS" in any discussion of terminal ballistics. It is nowhere near anything that could be called "Science". I think "Vaguely-understood art form" is a more apt descriptor.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
A DEWC like Lyman 358063 would fill the bill. You probably already have one...
.Ideal offered the 360270, but they're kinda scarce:
Attachments
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Lets see, Ed McGivern designed the bullet for his speed shooting in the 1920's. The idea is to have the longest bullet possible that weights about 158 grains in 50/1 alloy to hit where the factory ammo does, The big grooves were not for lube, but to reduce the drag of the bullet in his 6 inch barrels. It is rumored that his load of 2.0 grains of Bullseye stuck one in the barrel and he shot several behind the stuck bullet before he could quit. The hollow base was to seal as much gas as possible to get pressure up and barrel exit. Keith, Roper and McGivern talked about this bullet in the 1920's and early 1930's.
My example looks just like yours and I'm guessing pre-1950. I used it in the late 1970's some for NRA bullseye, but I could not shoot any better with it than wadcutters from my four-cavity mould. Please keep us up to date on shooting with it.
My example looks just like yours and I'm guessing pre-1950. I used it in the late 1970's some for NRA bullseye, but I could not shoot any better with it than wadcutters from my four-cavity mould. Please keep us up to date on shooting with it.