Waxes

[RicinYakima]

WOW! Almost more than I wanted to know, after stealing the thread! The Castrol product I use is called "Die forming wax" and is used to coat metal before stamping. However, it is too thick to be applied by fingers, just looking for best way to thin it.

 

[Ian]

Mobil 1 oil isn't what it used to be. Once they sued Castrol over the PAO is the only true synthetic oil thing and the courts ruled that Castrol's Group III dinosaur extract with pour-point depressants and coiled-polymer viscosity improvers was ok to pass off as the same thing, Exxon-Mobil gave up and went back to the much cheaper refined crude for their "full synthetic" formulas so they could continue to compete in the market at the same price point as Castrol, Valvoline, and the others, same as everyone else except for Amsoil, Motul, and Red Line as far as we know. Fiver and I have worked with several true, PAO base stocks and many other base stocks (PAGs, Monoesters, Diesters, etc.) and I can tell you that true PAO synthetics don't mix well with paraffin or microwax much of the time. Moral of the story, the majority of Mobil 1 oil isn't PAO-based (and thus will blend well with most things), and it isn't PAO, which means it isn't a truly uniform molecule with all the great additive-free qualities we expect from a synthetic base stock.

To thin your drawing wax, I'd buy a pint of automotive air conditioning ESTER oil at the parts house. It's used to retrofit Freon systems to Suva systems (R-134a) because it will misc with Suva refrigerant and also soak up residual Freon-compatible mineral oil left in the system. Ester oils will blend with anything organic, petroleum, or even PAG. The AC-grade stuff isn't sticky. If you require a little tackiness or want the added benefit of the EP properties of polybutene, you could thin your Castrol wax with any kind of two-cycle engine oil. I recommend Maxima K2 ester oil, Red Line (you can still get it on the West Coast I think) or Motul ester above all of them. Remember, the 2-stroke oils are about SAE 30-weight (ISO 100) and are thinned with something like naptha at 30-50% by volume so they will mix quickly with gasoline, so once the solvent evaporates your case lube will thicken. The AC oil won't do that, what you get is what you get if you use it to dilute the wax.

 

[Pistolero]

Had an excellent detailed, techy presentation by a Chevron engineer to our SAE group maybe 20 years ago
when there was exactly one hydrocracking refinery in the USA, 50-50 owned by Chevron and Pennzoil.
The hydrocracked petroleum oil base wound up being able to be reassembled into very narrow range
of molecular weights (chain lengths) with a good termination with hydrogen, which stabilizes the chain
far better than just cracking. I may have the powerpoint slides around somewhere.

Lots of careful testing of this essentially torn-down-and-reassembled hydrocarbon chains showed high temp
stability and overall lube oil performance essentially the same as the purely artificially constructed
PAO synthetics like old Mobile One.

When you look at the molecules, yes, they are different, but the basic idea of a stabile, non-reactive (or low
reactive) termination at the crack point (new end, which is normally highly reactive, leading to high temp
tarring and such nastiness), and a narrow range of molecular weights, you are getting pretty
much the same performance as fully man-assembled (probably from natural gas) synthetic oil molecules
and I imagine that these tests showed that - yes, they started with petroleum from the ground instead of
nat gas, but ultimately broke it down into components and put them back together in a consistent way --
two approaches in chemistry to get roughly the same results as far as lube oil performance is concerned.
And both are pretty much as "synthetic" as the other one.

For a while Chevron and Pennzoil sold oil with the Hydrocrack name and logo on the bottles, but I guess now
they all do it and call it synthetic oil.

 

[RicinYakima]

Thank you both.

 

[Ian]

Ric, you got the geek gearheads wound up now....

Bill, the problem with engine oil being hydro-cracked from crude or GTO from natty gas is it doesn't have quite the natural, high VI of the PAOs. The PAO base oils alone can be formulated by chain length to meet SAE's goofy temperature/centistokes slopes for a given multi-grade number without any viscosity modifiers (PPDs, VI improvers, etc.), which all the Group III oils will still require in order to meet. These VI improvers break down with shear forces, such as lube oil experiences in rotating plain bearings and especially with flat tappets. The remains of ground-up, worn out, coiled-chain VI improving molecules makes sludge and varnish, which begin to deposit themselves even in the presence of surfacants and dispersants when drain intervals are extended past the usual 3k miles. Also, when these things are used up, the oil reverts to its normal viscosity vs. temperature behavior, which will have a slope that's way out of spec for it's SAE multi-grade by halfway through a normal change interval. The additive package in a PAO is merely anti-oxidants, anti-corrosion chemicals, surfacants, dispersants, pH modifiers, and probably small bits of other secret stuff....but no viscosity modifiers to break down. A PAO doesn't "wear out". The only time it needs changing is when combustion acids build up, gasoline dilution occurs, and the additives can no longer protect the metal in the engine chemically. Physically, unless lots of short trips are all the oil experiences and the fuel and water condensation can't burn out, the base never wears out. So from all I can gather, Group III Whateverbrightstockbase DOES NOT equal Group IV PAO base in API engine oil formulations. Group III-based "synthetics" may pass the same tests as PAOs....at first....but not in the long run, their molecules simply have too much variety in spite of the cracking process and can't meet the grades without a lot of help from short-lived modifiers of the same sort that conventional Group II base oils require.

My takeaway from all this is use whatever oil you like in your engine, all the name-brands in all their flavors are actually pretty good stuff, but maintain it per your manual's SEVERE maintenance schedule, or sooner, before it breaks down. A good conventional oil changed three times as often as a top-quality, 100%-synthetic will end up costing less over the life of a grocery-getting engine and do just as well. Never go by the fictitious and Pollyanna-like oil life indicators, either.

 

[fiver]

they are breaking a lot of it now the the bakken oil because it is so thin and solventy.
but the big one is breaking oil with natural gas.
the oil and gas are the same basic structure since they come from the same place only mother nature exposed them to more or less heat and pressure.
the NG will break things down naturally and can then be refined into an oil which is clean but with the smaller molecules the synthetics are known for.
only without all the muss and fuss and waste of the crude oils of the past.

the solventized oil can also be used to break down the parrafinic oils from ohio and Utah so they can be separated easier too for plastic production.

I agree that giving the ester A/C oil a shot at thinning the die wax down.
it has mixed with all waxes I have tried it with, so has plain old mineral oil.
the mineral oil just doesn't have the film or slickness the ester oil has.

OH one more product that I have used to provide the tacky is Lucas oil supplement it adds a nice shear strength and the stringy we look for without being all silly about it.

 

[Eutectic]

I spent a lot of time where that Lube Oil Hydrofiner of Chevron's now stands.... I served my Alma Mater at Richmond Refinery in fact. The spot was a huge field maintenance shop with Engineering and Maintenance Supervision offices. I left there and was working some 1200 miles away when they broke ground for the new "Lube Project"..

It's funny how it is talked about now about Chevron and Pennzoil being best of buddies.... They ended up having a working understanding and I'm not sure it's any better these days!

Both Chevron and Pennzoil had big problems when Chevron Research was coming up with the design..... The process problem was the name of this thread "Waxes" Yeah, us lube cooks think wax important all right! But.....

Chevron Richmond Refinery ran a LOT of Paraffin based crude in those days; maybe even still. All their premium oils were totted as "paraffin base". It was said back then the molecule was like miniature 'needle bearings' to you car or machinery. Chevron left enough waxes in base stocks then to get this effect. Pennzoil always had way too much wax back then as anyone who has torn a engine down in the 'old days' saw a ton of waxy sludge in them from a life of Pennzoil. Richmond Refinery had 2 De-Waxing units and 2 wax-de-oiler units as well when I was there. THERE WAS BIG $$$$$$$$ IN WAX.!!! And then Polyethylene showed up! All of a sudden there was too much wax.

Chevron Research figured a way to run the waxy crude and somehow modify the paraffin molecules into lube stocks. Wish I knew more about this but it was 'top secret' stuff when I still knew some Richmond guys working. This discovery saved Chevron from a takeover from Pennzoil! We were sweating that at the time! But Pennzoil had that 'too much waxy' problem too! So some kind of deal was cut and our Chevron stocks were safe! Not sure what the relationship is today between the two as I'm quite dated on this....... but rest assured...... Chevron is on top in this relationship or I'd be surprised!

Pete

 

[fiver]

Chevron went with Texaco.

 

[Eutectic]

Chevron went with Texaco.

Actually Chevron took over Texaco..... But that's a different cartridge in the cylinder Lamar!

Pete

 

[RBHarter]

I tore a couple of those engines down .......one of them was so full of " gunky build up" , an SB 350 , that I really wondered why there weren't dents in the rocker covers even the pan had just sling channels cut in the gunk . Quaker State wasn't any better . I did know of a Pennzoil only Mercury Marquis that went well over 300k with only minimal sludge . It had loyal oil changes at 3,000 miles -100 +0 it whole life . ........ Of course I tore down Havaline and Valvoline engines knocking on 200k with hardly blackened rocker covers and just caramel lines where the oil flowed . Glory I guess .

 

[Pistolero]

I have torn down engines with that horrific waxy black sludge 1/2' thick on the entire rocker arm area! The owner of one proudly said he ALWAYS used Quaker State. Guess
those Pennsy crudes had a whole lot of wax in them. Separate it out and sell the paraffin for candles.

I have used Castrol for many decades, and have actually had a few mechanics ask me what kind of oil I was using. They only had the 'grey paint' sludge,
thin layer of medium gray, maybe .005 think on everything. It would rub off with a cloth and a bit of rubbing. I always wondered if it was metal wear dust
or maybe lead from the fuel. Nowdays, the oils give a light film of dark brown, but I change often, so no real buildup like in the bad old days.

Bill

 

[Ian]

Yep, Chevron soaked up Texaco.

I've seen the "yellow or green bottle" sludge lots of times, it can be pretty impressive. Then, a few years ago a buddy took the intake manifold off of a 300K mile '92 Chevy TBI 350 to fix an oil leak and called me to look at the absolutely clean insides, not even any crusty buildup on the heat crossover. Color was just clean, dark cast iron, no yellow or brown tint to it. The previous owner, who bought it brand new, had religiously changed the oil every 3K miles or sooner and had always used Pennzoil straight 30-weight. I couldn't believe it.

My only explanation was NOT having used a multi-grade oil, and having changed it often enough.

Castrol GTX used to be good oil and I used it 20 years myself, but the last vehicle I got that was clean at 34K miles (no history of what was used before, probably cheap dealership bulk Pennzoil 5w-30) immediately started varnishing when I used Castrol, and at 50-something K when I resealed the intake manifold there was sludge building up badly, and lots of varnish. I changed the oil every 2800-3K in an effort to keep it "like new" for as long as possible, all for naught. Switched Royal Purple for a few changes and it didn't get any worse, but didn't get better, either. Then I switched to Pennzoil ultra-platinum (made with the GTO process from gas) and after three, 5K services it's cleaning up nicely.

 

[Eutectic]

I've seen the "yellow or green bottle" sludge lots of times, it can be pretty impressive. Then, a few years ago a buddy took the intake manifold off of a 300K mile '92 Chevy TBI 350 to fix an oil leak and called me to look at the absolutely clean insides, not even any crusty buildup on the heat crossover. Color was just clean, dark cast iron, no yellow or brown tint to it. The previous owner, who bought it brand new, had religiously changed the oil every 3K miles or sooner and had always used Pennzoil straight 30-weight. I couldn't believe it.

Ian,

Look at the 'red' in your quote above. At that '92 date that Pennzoil wasn't refined by them.. It came from that "Lube Oil Hydrofiner" at Chevron I spoke of above! Only the bottle was Pennzoil..... not the oil and formulation...

Pete

 

[Ian]

Ahhhhhh. It was about 2010-11 when the intake came off, so 1992-2010 or so was the period the engine saw nothing but straight 30 Penz. I don't remember the exact mileage but it was just over 300K, I remember that distinctly. The engine should have worn out the rings and rod bearings by then, but it didn't.

 

[fiver]

I recall putting some Pennzoil in my new yorker at about that same time.
I could feel the difference over the Quaker state in how the engine ran.
I went to Valvoline shortly after that and stayed with it forever.
the FIL run Quaker state and we pulled both of our engines down one right after the other, you could see the brown varnish stain in mine [but otherwise just clean] and the Darker build up in his engine.
he always ran Rislone as an oil booster and I'm positive that is what kept his engine fairly clean and didn't let the wax build up like I had seen in other Q/S engines.

 

[Pistolero]

My last Accord went 347K in my hands, Castrol GTX every 3K. It was running perfectly and still making the
same gas mileage as when it had 40K on it when I sold it. There was a dark brown film on everything, but no
real buildup at all.
New Honda has a 0W-20 oil spec, and Castrol didn't make any until just now, so have been using Mobil 1.
Just saw the Castrol in that viscosity, bought a jug, planning to go back to Castrol.

I started with my VW in Fla heat and running at top end all the time back in the late 60s. 10W-30 oil went in
like oil came out like water in 3K miles, and oil pressure was really, really marginal after the first 1K miles. I
learned that the viscosity improvers were crapping out, and when I switched to Castrol XLR racing oil, 20W-50,
it went in like oil, came out at 3K looking and feeling exactly the same, and oil pressure stayed good all the
way. A few years later GTX replaced XLR but seemed just as good for the hot running air cooled VWs.

Stuck with Castrol all these years, always had really good results, esp when compared to some of the other
engines I tore down when working for other folks in college! YIKES!

Bill

 

[Ian]

Castrol GTX 20W-50 was THE oil for air-cooled VWs, even in the '90s. That one flavor made me brand-loyal for a long time, but not anymore.

 

[Pistolero]

Very much agree, and my old 911 air cooler seems to like it, too.

Are you unhappy with Castrol these days? I know companies change over time, new bosses,
new ideas. Any actually probs with them?

 

[Ian]

Post #32. I won't use 5W-30 Castrol anymore, I don't know what's the matter with it but I switched to the pseudo-synthetic Pennsoil GTO stuff and have been very happy with it.

 

[Pistolero]

Ok, I had read that, just slipped my mind. May stay off of Castrol, Mobile One seems to be doing well.

Pennsoil was the other half of the first hydrocracker.

Bill