Wonder why the 9 Luger is so popular!

[Bret4207]

I'm willing to bet that there have been more fatalities attributed to the 9 mm than the 45 ACP. After all, it is the choice of NATO, most police departments as well as the street gangs.

Actually the 9mm has fallen out of favor with LE. It's still in use, but not in the numbers it was. Which brings me to real world experience. I was issued a 357 mag Smith when I started as a Trooper. The vast majority of our shooting was car struck deer and the occasional livestock. Using 158 sp 357 ammo I was good on the majority of deer out to 75 yards, maybe a bit more. A good shot in the heart area gave you dead deer, to say nothing of head shots of closer animals. Then the recoil shield issue popped up and for many months we were issued 38 +P ammo. The results were disappointing. Range was cut by a good 25 yards and they didn't drop as fast. The guns were fixed, mag ammo returned and we went back to "normal". Fast forward several years. The 9mm fans prevailed upon Division to go for the bottom feeders. This was in the era of the FBI study that said a 147 gr subsonic round was the ticket. It sucked. I have witnessed that round failing to penetrate the skull of an average whitetail deer. It was awful. After a few years we went to the 115 gr +P+ and it was better, about like the 38+P. Later we switched to the 45GAP. That knocks deer over just fine thank you very much, but is harder to hit with at extended ranges, partly due to it being in Glock with a NY trigger.

I can load my 38's to 357 mag level, well over 1200 fps with a 150-160 gr bullet. I don't believe that can be done with a 9mm, but I'm not up on all the data. Where the 9mm shines is when you accept it's a hot loaded 38 and you gots lotsa rounds. I don't see that as a bad thing, the 38/9mm work fine. But they aren't a 357/40/45. Different critters.

 

[Bret4207]

Who would be stupid enough to load 38's to 357 magnum levels, for carry ammo......when you can just opt for a 357 magnum? Sides, everyone that carries isn't a handloader.

Uh, we did it for years because you couldn't get good 38 ammo. If we want to confine ourselves to that, then at that time your 9mm would have been loaded with ball. Lousy stuff for social situations and game. Yes, now you are far more likely to find super hot loaded 9mm ammo than super hot loaded 38 Spec or 45ACP. Why? Because there are a lot of cheap 38's still floating around that might not be safe with standard 38's, much less +P+ stuff, and because you don't need +P+ in a 45 to get things die. This argument reminds me of those claiming that a 17 cal 20 gr bullet at 4500fps is a better killer than a 30 cal 180 gr at 2800 fps.

 

[Bret4207]

If we want to bring street gangs into the mix as evidence of thoughtful, considered choices in sidearms, then this is hopeless.

 

[Winelover]

I wouldn't opt for a 9 mm for defense against a deer, either. Certainly, not at rifle distances. They can take absorb a lot more killing than most two legged predators. I have seen them travel a couple hundred yards, after being shot with a center-fire rifle and their guts were hanging out.....so much so that you didn't even need a knife to open the body cavity.

 

[Rick]

Most of the gang bangers choice of firearms is whatever they can steal. In L.A. when they can get them one of their big choice is a sawed off Ruger 10/22. Why? Sawed off so they can swing it around in the back seat of a car, the Ruger 10/22 because isn't any of them can shoot and it gives them 10 shots to spray & pray.

 

[Bret4207]

In the end it comes down to using what you feel confident in. I don't discount the 9mm, in fact I have it's little brother, a 380, that I like very much and have some confidence in with my loads. But if I'm going to have to depend on something for all around social use, it's not going to be a 380/9mm/38 Spec. It's going to be a 357, 40, 44 or 45...or a 12 gauge/308!!!

 

[Winelover]

If we want to bring street gangs into the mix as evidence of thoughtful, considered choices in sidearms, then this is hopeless.

It was mentioned for the popularity aspect of the cartridge. Must be something to it, base on popularity. Hasn't faded into obscurity like the 45 GAP and which in now beginning to happen to the 40 Short and Weak.

Recenty, I was interested in a Walther PPS in 9 mm, the discontinued version with the rail on the dust cover. Did a internet search and the only ones that were available were in 40 S&W. I asked my LGS if they could find one. No dice. I asked why the 40's were the only ones available.....their reply was nobody wants the 40 caliber. Same thing with the older Shield, when Smith was offering the $75 dollar rebate. Only the 40's were available at most distributors.

 

[Rick]

I've somewhere between very little and absolutely no confidence in a 380. Testing has proven that it won't even penetrate a heavy winter jacket. If the time ever comes that I need to protect my hieny from a serious threat it won't be with a 380. To me the 380 is a great way to piss off the bad guy.

 

[Missionary]

The 380 was made for the Europeans who are apt to fall over from only the sight of a handgun.
If it does not start with a "4" I do not think I will bother myself with it.
The 40 S&W with a 200 grain FN cast is not a toy ! The 41 Colt with a 200 grainer was a noted "fight stopper"... The 40 S&W tops that. But hey you still have to place the slug where it stops the fight. A caliber 45 is far more to my liking.

 

[gman]

I don't want to get shot with any of it!

 

[Bret4207]

It was mentioned for the popularity aspect of the cartridge. Must be something to it, base on popularity. Hasn't faded into obscurity like the 45 GAP and which in now beginning to happen to the 40 Short and Weak.

Recenty, I was interested in a Walther PPS in 9 mm, the discontinued version with the rail on the dust cover. Did a internet search and the only ones that were available were in 40 S&W. I asked my LGS if they could find one. No dice. I asked why the 40's were the only ones available.....their reply was nobody wants the 40 caliber. Same thing with the older Shield, when Smith was offering the $75 dollar rebate. Only the 40's were available at most distributors.

Popularity has nothing to do with effectiveness. Popularity has to do with advertising and movie props. The 44 Mag was incredibly popular after Dirty Harry came out. Does that mean it was the proper gun for everything? No. Uzi's were big for a period, so were Glock 17's, not because they were in 9mm, but because it was the fad. If the Uzi and Gloc 17 had started off in 40S+W or 45ACP, that's what would have been popular. Gangs are going t use what they can get their hands on. If I offer a gang banger a choice between and 9mm and a 38 Super, which one do you think he'll take? The one he's familiar with- the 9mm. That's all there is to it.

 

[fiver]

I'm enjoying this.
I'm staying out of it,,,,,, but I am enjoying it.
I'm gonna wait for the 10mm vs 40 fight so I can point out the 38-40.

 

[Bret4207]

I've somewhere between very little and absolutely no confidence in a 380. Testing has proven that it won't even penetrate a heavy winter jacket. If the time ever comes that I need to protect my hieny from a serious threat it won't be with a 380. To me the 380 is a great way to piss off the bad guy.

Load it up with a nice 85-90 gr FN ina moderately warm load and it works a lot better than typical hardball. I'm certain that if the ammo makers had put the effort into jazzing up the 380 that they did to the 9mm we'd have people swearing it was the best thing since bottled beer.

 

[Bret4207]

I don't want to get shot with any of it!

When it's pointed at your face, a 22 looks pretty darned big!

 

[Bret4207]

The 380 was made for the Europeans who are apt to fall over from only the sight of a handgun.

The 380ACP was invented, as far as I can tell, by JOHN MOSES BROWNING!

 

[freebullet]

I've somewhere between very little and absolutely no confidence in a 380. Testing has proven that it won't even penetrate a heavy winter jacket. If the time ever comes that I need to protect my hieny from a serious threat it won't be with a 380. To me the 380 is a great way to piss off the bad guy.

No....
I've learned a great deal from ya, appreciate your contributions to the hobby & forum. That right there ain't truth though. I'm not saying the round is a man stopper, but it holds it's own quite well. In my own testing it is comparable or better than 110-125 from a 38spcl at standard velocity.

A 380 at 10yds will more often than not completely pass through with the right bullet. When fired as a controlled pair it is extremely effective. Everything I've shot with it fell down & died. Typical self defense distance is inside 7yds for civilians.

Numerous accounts of large calibers riding a skull, rather than penetrating. If you hit an old hard skull on the round parts we would all be shocked at the results. Even the 45acp has documented cranial hits that didn't penetrate & rode between skin & skull winding up in the leg. Placement, bullet, & load are all relevant for every caliber, even the large ones.

The 9mm was touted as an over penetrating round(with 115-125) for some time. With good bullets that risk can be mitigated. Some super fast expanding bullets under penetrate from a 45.

Im not recommending anyone a specific caliber or bullet, but dont like misinformation being touted as truth.

The 9mm popularity is due to cost & ease of use plain & simple.

 

[Rick]

Hasn't faded into obscurity like the 45 GAP

Had the 45 gap been the military cartridge about now people would be saying . . . 9 What?
.
.

 

[Rick]

You could well be right freebullet but from my very limited experience shooting a 380 it was pretty anemic. Never owned one, never did and still have no desire to own one. If everybody liked the same thing there would only be one cartridge and one firearm to shoot it. Good thing that ain't the case.

 

[Cherokee]

In the past few years I have moved from 45 ACP to 9mm because I could no longer shoot the 45 as accurately as the 9. Age and physical condition have taken its toll. We have better bullets today; shot placement is more important to me than the size.

 

[Ian]

I'm enjoying it too. Everyone is right if they have an experienced opinion.