I believe I have a very special rifle
- Thread starter Snakeoil
- Start date
fiver
Well-Known Member
your gonna have to get closer to 10-K rounds before you see the bottom.
i learned years back, get any powder you can if it's a good price.
there's always something you can do with it if you shoot both cast and jacketed.
any powder you say?
yeah,,, BGM-50 makes a decent 7 mauser load if you place a heavier bullet down on top of a F/F case crammed full.
maybe not norma R-1 unless your gonna make some rifle blanks, or need 2 grs to put under that BMG-50 load to make things better.
but even without the r-1 that BMG load will get you a dead deer out to 200yds. easy enough.
but at 10 bucks a pound or so,, go head and get all they got, or all the dollars you got available ATM.
i learned years back, get any powder you can if it's a good price.
there's always something you can do with it if you shoot both cast and jacketed.
any powder you say?
yeah,,, BGM-50 makes a decent 7 mauser load if you place a heavier bullet down on top of a F/F case crammed full.
maybe not norma R-1 unless your gonna make some rifle blanks, or need 2 grs to put under that BMG-50 load to make things better.
but even without the r-1 that BMG load will get you a dead deer out to 200yds. easy enough.
but at 10 bucks a pound or so,, go head and get all they got, or all the dollars you got available ATM.
Ian
Notorious member
That's how I ended up with three of those metal gallon paint thinner can containers of IMR 4320. Free for loading a guy 100 rounds of .270 Winchester and I had all the components on hand. The only thing I really like about 4320 is the way that it smells when fired, but it does acceptably well in just about any medium rifle cartridge, even with cast.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I just took at look at the QL website. I see that one needs to improve their ballistics/physics/chemistry vocabulary in order to understand everything it is telling you. Not a big deal but short-term memory with gray hair probably requires one print and post the various definitions on the wall for regular reference. Ratio of specific heats is one that I'd not seen before.
I thought I saw a free download. I would assume this is a watered-down version that whets your appetite to purchase the software package. Might download the freebie version and play with it. With winter coming, it's good to have some indoor toys to play with. Might end up buying the software. Spent $50 on dinner last night and have nothing to show for it but an extra pound on the scale this morning.
Thanks again for running those other numbers. Yes, you are right. I was also under the impression that Bullseye had a steeper burning curve that those below it on the chart.
I assume more muzzle pressure translates to wasted pressure exiting the barrel. Or, is the goal to have muzzle pressure near zero so that there is minimal gas escape directly behind the bullet when it exits the muzzle. Probably both, right? I'm truly new to the physics involved here and just trying to think thru what would be optimal for accuracy while achieving the velocity goals.
I'm enjoying this discussion. Learning is always the most fun. But I don't want to belabor the point. If I become a PITA about all this stuff, just tell me. It's just nice to get a jump start from someone that has already been down the road.
I thought I saw a free download. I would assume this is a watered-down version that whets your appetite to purchase the software package. Might download the freebie version and play with it. With winter coming, it's good to have some indoor toys to play with. Might end up buying the software. Spent $50 on dinner last night and have nothing to show for it but an extra pound on the scale this morning.
Thanks again for running those other numbers. Yes, you are right. I was also under the impression that Bullseye had a steeper burning curve that those below it on the chart.
I assume more muzzle pressure translates to wasted pressure exiting the barrel. Or, is the goal to have muzzle pressure near zero so that there is minimal gas escape directly behind the bullet when it exits the muzzle. Probably both, right? I'm truly new to the physics involved here and just trying to think thru what would be optimal for accuracy while achieving the velocity goals.
I'm enjoying this discussion. Learning is always the most fun. But I don't want to belabor the point. If I become a PITA about all this stuff, just tell me. It's just nice to get a jump start from someone that has already been down the road.
fiver
Well-Known Member
no problem it's just chit chat.
you might want to do a search for the gordons reloading tool too.
the guy that put it out just died like 2 weeks ago, so there might be a time when it simply gets dropped.
chuckle.
there's ideal.
where the acceleration gently takes place over 3-4 inches of movement.
then it's maintained at X amount of speed for X amount of barrel, before the pressure drops off to nuthin in the last 2-3 inches.
then there's what we get.
quick acceleration.
fast pressure drop and low muzzle pressure.
medium quick acceleration.
some push for 15~ inches of barrel then pressure drops off and 'everything' tries to rebound back to where it started.
or a bit slower shove with a gentle pressure rise.
this one keeps on being pushed along till the powder fizzles out.
more of a foom than a ka-boom
the last one.
your basically running right up there with a jacketed load and have all of those things to deal with.
engraving matters, slump matters, lube viscosity matters, neck tension matters, alloy helps or not [shrug] and muzzle pressure is a real thing to deal with.
you might want to do a search for the gordons reloading tool too.
the guy that put it out just died like 2 weeks ago, so there might be a time when it simply gets dropped.
chuckle.
there's ideal.
where the acceleration gently takes place over 3-4 inches of movement.
then it's maintained at X amount of speed for X amount of barrel, before the pressure drops off to nuthin in the last 2-3 inches.
then there's what we get.
quick acceleration.
fast pressure drop and low muzzle pressure.
medium quick acceleration.
some push for 15~ inches of barrel then pressure drops off and 'everything' tries to rebound back to where it started.
or a bit slower shove with a gentle pressure rise.
this one keeps on being pushed along till the powder fizzles out.
more of a foom than a ka-boom
the last one.
your basically running right up there with a jacketed load and have all of those things to deal with.
engraving matters, slump matters, lube viscosity matters, neck tension matters, alloy helps or not [shrug] and muzzle pressure is a real thing to deal with.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Since the question of my chrono's accuracy was raised when QL was predicting 200 fps higher than my chrono was seeing for the same load, today, I put my chrono in front and my friend's right behind it. I shot .22 Win Wildcats over with with my Single Six. For 8 shots my chrono showed an average of 1076 fps. My friend's did not pick up all the shots. I think it got 6 of them and recorded an average of 1085. So that is 9 fps is 0.8% variation between the two. Competition Electronics said their chronos are held to 1% accuracy. They also said if I sent a chrono back to them claiming it was not accurate, they would have done the same exact test with a known accurate chrono.
So, it would appear my numbers were good.
As a sidenote, another reason for bringing the chrono was to let my budd shoot his CPA 44-1/2 in 25-20SS over it. He breech seat (with the breech seater I made for him). He shoots a 118 grain spitzer nose PB cast bullet over 8.3gr of 2400. For 10 shots is ES was 24fps and SD was 7fps. Avg velocity was 1536fps. That's impressive. And the accuracy at 400 yds bore it out.
After the discussions with Ian over how the powder burns, I think the secret here is breech seating. I think it assures consistent pressures in the chamber. I know I've said this before, but this is just more incentive to try breech seating that little seed of a bullet in the Bee and try 2400 again.
My partner is still trying to get his new Hart barreled Meachem High wall in .30-30 to shoot. PB has proven to give the best groups so far, but still not matching what we can get with our 03 Springfields. He is shooting the same bullet only sized for the Meachem's bore which is .308. He said he thinks that 0.002 neck tension may be fine with jacketed, but now with cast. He may be right. I think I run about 0.003 in my Springfield loads. But I'm also shooting a 0.314 bullet. We were talking when we went to pick up the targets. I told him we could try 2 things. First, try a bigger bullet. He went with a bigger bullet in his 03A3 and the groups tightened right up. The other thing is he could also try breech seating the bullets in the Meachem. Since it is a single shot, he might want to poke that bullet out of the case a bit more so it engraves when he closes the action. That would be a form of breech seating. I just got off the phone with him and he agrees it is worth a try.
So, it would appear my numbers were good.
As a sidenote, another reason for bringing the chrono was to let my budd shoot his CPA 44-1/2 in 25-20SS over it. He breech seat (with the breech seater I made for him). He shoots a 118 grain spitzer nose PB cast bullet over 8.3gr of 2400. For 10 shots is ES was 24fps and SD was 7fps. Avg velocity was 1536fps. That's impressive. And the accuracy at 400 yds bore it out.
After the discussions with Ian over how the powder burns, I think the secret here is breech seating. I think it assures consistent pressures in the chamber. I know I've said this before, but this is just more incentive to try breech seating that little seed of a bullet in the Bee and try 2400 again.
My partner is still trying to get his new Hart barreled Meachem High wall in .30-30 to shoot. PB has proven to give the best groups so far, but still not matching what we can get with our 03 Springfields. He is shooting the same bullet only sized for the Meachem's bore which is .308. He said he thinks that 0.002 neck tension may be fine with jacketed, but now with cast. He may be right. I think I run about 0.003 in my Springfield loads. But I'm also shooting a 0.314 bullet. We were talking when we went to pick up the targets. I told him we could try 2 things. First, try a bigger bullet. He went with a bigger bullet in his 03A3 and the groups tightened right up. The other thing is he could also try breech seating the bullets in the Meachem. Since it is a single shot, he might want to poke that bullet out of the case a bit more so it engraves when he closes the action. That would be a form of breech seating. I just got off the phone with him and he agrees it is worth a try.
waco
Springfield, Oregon
This is why I picked up 45 pounds of IMR7383 for $5 a pound. Must be good for something.
Ian
Notorious member
I modeled that with a 24" barrel and the bullet base .100" outside of the case and got....wait for it....
1,537 fps.
fiver
Well-Known Member
that doesn't hurt.
one of my H.V tricks is very light neck tension.
.001 or 1 and a half.
and then seat out as long as i can get with enough assurance of holding things together.
then i measure what i end up with after chambering the round.
that tells me that's as much jam as i can get without going to more neck tension and trying to ram things together.
i use the chambered round measurement and seat out about 10 thou longer and let the act of running the bolt home do the final seating for me.
it's kind of breech seating,kind of not.
but what it helps with is acting sort of like a crimp, it raises the engraving pressure, and helps the powder burn better by not allowing it that little dip after engraving takes place.
i probably raise the initial engraving pressure 4-K but it doesn't do anything other than give the slowish powder a better chance at getting going, and get the bullet in as straight as i can from a fixed round.
one of my H.V tricks is very light neck tension.
.001 or 1 and a half.
and then seat out as long as i can get with enough assurance of holding things together.
then i measure what i end up with after chambering the round.
that tells me that's as much jam as i can get without going to more neck tension and trying to ram things together.
i use the chambered round measurement and seat out about 10 thou longer and let the act of running the bolt home do the final seating for me.
it's kind of breech seating,kind of not.
but what it helps with is acting sort of like a crimp, it raises the engraving pressure, and helps the powder burn better by not allowing it that little dip after engraving takes place.
i probably raise the initial engraving pressure 4-K but it doesn't do anything other than give the slowish powder a better chance at getting going, and get the bullet in as straight as i can from a fixed round.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Love to see a pic of the CPA Stevens 25-20SS! A dream gun for me.
Interesting discussion. I like the ideas tossed around about how to achieve crimp like results w/o a crimp. Seating into the lands has always sort of beeb a goal for me where it as possible, but every now and again you run into a scenario where the rifle/bullet/load combo wants some free bore jump. Sure would make life easier if that type of thing was consistent!
Great conversation guys!
Interesting discussion. I like the ideas tossed around about how to achieve crimp like results w/o a crimp. Seating into the lands has always sort of beeb a goal for me where it as possible, but every now and again you run into a scenario where the rifle/bullet/load combo wants some free bore jump. Sure would make life easier if that type of thing was consistent!
Great conversation guys!
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Just go to the CPA site, Brett. Paul has pics of his guns. Probably a quick Google search will bring up a bunch of pics as well. They all look the same. Only the hole in the barrel is different. There are several at Wilton. One guy has several barrels and shoots it in different events, including .22 matches. This one belongs to a late member here, Sendaro. John passed a few years ago at 72. He had a nice small collection including some original 44-1/2 Stevens. He was a serious benchrest shooter and wrote the history of Pinetree Gun Club where benchrest was born. I have a signed copy of his book. I still miss the guy badly. He had a great sense of humor and his absence on the firing line is still felt.
Mr. Ross, the goal is for ME to have fun, not entertain all you shut-ins who spend the day watching the View, reading posts here about Brett getting his foot caught in another frozen cowpie while braiding the tails of his goats or watching a video from CW on how to butter popcorn in a tumbler.
All seriousness aside, I am learning in the process and that is always a good thing. At some point today I plan to get into the Gordon's Reloading Tool software and see if I can not work up a few loads on my own. The home screen for GRT looks very much like the screen Ian posted for QL. Should be interesting and hopefully fun. I know that the hard part will be the teething period as I figure out how things are done. The manual is pretty good. But I find I tend to learn more by simply doing. Then I can confirm my process by going back to the manual. I suspect using it is somewhat intuitive for a shooter with some experience in reloading. They have two version/home screens. A simple version and an expert version. I'm starting out with the simple version. From what I can see, it is just a screen with less info portrayed. Might be fewer inputs sections as well. I'll worry about the Expert version when and if the time comes.
I have to make chili for the club match on Sunday so plan on making it today. Chili is always better if it has sat for a few days. Temps are dropping like the Dow so front porch is cold storage now and great place to put the chili to sit until Sunday. I also have to go to the local library and mooch some book binding supplies to fix the binding on Charlie's copy of Winchester Single Shots that I'm reading. The quality of the binding is questionable, and somebody broke the binding on the title page. Need to fix it before the book starts to fall apart. Then there is the repair of the tank on my '39 Indian Four that I have to do and not destroy the paint. Been practicing with test coupons with the fancy solder and expensive flux I got for the job. Just might go back to my buddy George with all the ingredients.
Cannot understand how I had time to work before I retired.
Mr. Ross, the goal is for ME to have fun, not entertain all you shut-ins who spend the day watching the View, reading posts here about Brett getting his foot caught in another frozen cowpie while braiding the tails of his goats or watching a video from CW on how to butter popcorn in a tumbler.
All seriousness aside, I am learning in the process and that is always a good thing. At some point today I plan to get into the Gordon's Reloading Tool software and see if I can not work up a few loads on my own. The home screen for GRT looks very much like the screen Ian posted for QL. Should be interesting and hopefully fun. I know that the hard part will be the teething period as I figure out how things are done. The manual is pretty good. But I find I tend to learn more by simply doing. Then I can confirm my process by going back to the manual. I suspect using it is somewhat intuitive for a shooter with some experience in reloading. They have two version/home screens. A simple version and an expert version. I'm starting out with the simple version. From what I can see, it is just a screen with less info portrayed. Might be fewer inputs sections as well. I'll worry about the Expert version when and if the time comes.
I have to make chili for the club match on Sunday so plan on making it today. Chili is always better if it has sat for a few days. Temps are dropping like the Dow so front porch is cold storage now and great place to put the chili to sit until Sunday. I also have to go to the local library and mooch some book binding supplies to fix the binding on Charlie's copy of Winchester Single Shots that I'm reading. The quality of the binding is questionable, and somebody broke the binding on the title page. Need to fix it before the book starts to fall apart. Then there is the repair of the tank on my '39 Indian Four that I have to do and not destroy the paint. Been practicing with test coupons with the fancy solder and expensive flux I got for the job. Just might go back to my buddy George with all the ingredients.
Cannot understand how I had time to work before I retired.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Meanwhile, back at the ranch.
Using the GRT program was pretty easy. And i was wrong about no Imperial units. The manual said there was a ruler icon that you clicked on to change units, but it was not to be seen in the sample page. But, when I opened a new page to do some work, the little icons appeared and I could use inches instead of mm.
The program has some limits. For example, it will not let you go below or above a certain threshold load size for the powders, each having its own limits. The US powders available are also somewhat limited. No Clays, Red Dot, 700X, PB, SR7625 or Green Dot. That pretty much wipes out all of the cast bullet powders listed for the 37gr bullet in LCBH. Unique is the only one available in GRT.
I ran a bunch of fast powders thru the software. 2400 was a non-player. Smallest load was 6gr and the velocity given is 300 fps faster than what I measured at the range. It could be my bullet data is a bit off. I estimated land and groove width. I shot the bullet I used to slug the barrel. Not sure why I did that. Brain fart I guess. Seem to have more of those than usual.
If I go by what I've learned from Ian about the "smoldering" pressures I will get in this little case, none of the powders in the GRT software looks very promising. . It is almost like that little case and bullet just does not want to play in a 1400-1500 fps world.
But, since the software predicts velocities that are higher than what I recorded, there might be hope. These are the powders that looked like they might be suitable.
Hodgon HP38
Norma R1
Vitavuori N310
Accurate Nitro 100
Accurate Solo 1000
Hogdon Titegroup
Vitavuori N320
Using the GRT program was pretty easy. And i was wrong about no Imperial units. The manual said there was a ruler icon that you clicked on to change units, but it was not to be seen in the sample page. But, when I opened a new page to do some work, the little icons appeared and I could use inches instead of mm.
The program has some limits. For example, it will not let you go below or above a certain threshold load size for the powders, each having its own limits. The US powders available are also somewhat limited. No Clays, Red Dot, 700X, PB, SR7625 or Green Dot. That pretty much wipes out all of the cast bullet powders listed for the 37gr bullet in LCBH. Unique is the only one available in GRT.
I ran a bunch of fast powders thru the software. 2400 was a non-player. Smallest load was 6gr and the velocity given is 300 fps faster than what I measured at the range. It could be my bullet data is a bit off. I estimated land and groove width. I shot the bullet I used to slug the barrel. Not sure why I did that. Brain fart I guess. Seem to have more of those than usual.
If I go by what I've learned from Ian about the "smoldering" pressures I will get in this little case, none of the powders in the GRT software looks very promising. . It is almost like that little case and bullet just does not want to play in a 1400-1500 fps world.
But, since the software predicts velocities that are higher than what I recorded, there might be hope. These are the powders that looked like they might be suitable.
Hodgon HP38
Norma R1
Vitavuori N310
Accurate Nitro 100
Accurate Solo 1000
Hogdon Titegroup
Vitavuori N320