What Did You Shoot Today?

A week or so back, I washed a hunting coat and then put it threw the dryer not knowing there were eight .22 LR rounds in a pocket from sometime I went squirrel hunting in it last year. The wife brought them to me and they'd been sitting here on the desk waiting for me to get around to them, Went outside a little while ago with a rifle and every single one fired like nothing ever happenned. Pretty impressed.

run green-dot through the GRT in place of P/B.

Snakeoil said:

Today was our Vermont Match. Hardly any wind. Low shooter count as we suspect some are still worried about COVID since we lost a half dozen shooter to COVID a couple weeks ago.

But this post was not about that match as much as about my partner's .32-40 loads. He found 8 lbs of IMR PB on his powder shelf and decided to try it. In practice he got better groups than he had with 2400. But today, he had some issues and I told him I'd run some numbers for him in GRT if he wanted. He handed me a loaded cartridge and told me to have fun.

Turns out that PB is not in the GRT powder database, probably because they stopped making it a while ago. So I used the powder just before it on the burn rate chart and just after. That turned out to be Accurate Solo 1250 (before) and Vihtavuori N320 (after). I know that the burn rate is only one aspect of a powder. But for this exercise, it appears to have been useful. What I found was that in both cases, pressures were in the mid 20K area while velocity was in the 1400's. Not unsafe. But not sure this is a good application for PB. I ran the same parameters for the rifle/cartridge and changed the powder to 2400. Pressure was cut about in half for the same MV.

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Replying to my own post because it's a continuation of the same topic. Today we were talking about Steve's 32-40 and the lack of consistency. That rifle should shoot like a laser. So, after our trip to the club to get some new scope settings after changing the rear mount on my 10X Unertl, I thought it would be a good day to stop at Steve's and go over his reloading regime. He's got more time behind a loader than I ever will, but it is all benchrest, military and F-class stuff with jacketed BT bullets. A lot more variables in hand cast PB bullets.

One of the problems at the match, was him not being able to chamber some bullets. But when he pushed the bullet deeper into the case (he had a Lee hand tool with him) they would chamber. I measured the bullets and cases during the match and at the end, compared them to another shooter with the identical rifle. His bullet were sticking way out of the case and were the same dimension as Steves. His would slip right in.

I won't bore you with the 3 hours I spent there at his house. But first elimination was him bulging bullets in the sizer. I can operate the sizer with 2 fingers. It's ain't that.

So, I said let's load an empty case with a bullet seated way out and see if it will chamber. Steve did that and when he handed to me the bullet was crooked in the case. I straighten it with my fingers and tried to chamber it. It went in. This is a tapered Saeco bullet for the .32-40. I was able to shove it home with my thumb and needed the breech block for maybe the last 1/32 or so. It engraved the first 2 lands.

So, I had him make another since I had to straighten this one. It had a cockeye bullet as well. So, I sat down at his press and seated a bullet. Same thing. I noticed that case was sitting crooked in the press and not centered in the die. The press is a Brown Bair H-press with 3 die stations. I took each of the shell holder bases out and noticed uneven wear. I also noticed that the shell holder did not seat flat on the back of the large upper diameter of the shell holder. It seated on the lower, smaller diameter of the shell holder which means it can rock. I also noticed that the press was worn at the top thirds of the stroke where it does all its work. At the bottom, it was rock solid on the two columns. So, I think the press is playing a role.

He has a bullet concentricity gage with an indicator and I had bullet eccentricity as high as 0.020 at the nose. No matter what I did with that press, I could not get a bullet to seat straight into the case.

He does not have an M-die and was using a chamfering tool (cutter, not bellmouth plug) to allow the bullet to slide in. Bad idea. I also noticed that some cases had mouths that were not square to the axis of the case.

After the 3 hours, I gave up and decided to take his dies, some bullets already sized, some of his cases and try to load bullets into them on my Rock Chucker. I did one when I got home. Same conditions, only difference was my press. Even brought home his shell holders. Bullet went in crooked. I quit there.

Tomorrow I'll make an M-die for him. He gave me an old rusty die that is currently soaking in phosphoric acid and should be done tomorrow morning. I'll make the plug from a 1/2-20 bolt. Oh, I also took the 7 test cases and measured them. They were all over the place. Can't use an M-die with different length cases. So, I found the 2nd shortest of the bunch and sized the rest to that length. I toss the really short one back in the box and marked it as very short. I know that him using the chamfering tool just made his cases shorter and shorter each time. That ends now.

One thing that I know is playing a role here is that tapered bullet. Once the base enters the case, unless the pressure is dead in line with the axis of the case, the bullet can rock. That means the shell holder must be seated flush, the bullet seated flush in the shell holder and the entire assembly's axis in line with the axis of the die. But, I'm thinking that something that might reduce the risk of rocking the bullet is a nose punch that makes contact as far down the nose as possible and almost touching the first land. I might have to machine a larger cone nose punch for him.

Oh, one last little annoying thing. The bullet seating die also crimps the case. I did not know that. That first bullet I seated was not only crooked, it was crimped, too. I did not believe my eyes. So, setting up that die requires that an empty case be used to establish where the crimp starts to touch and then backing the die off a turn or two and locking it. No stinking crimp wanted or needed.

It's amazing what you find when you start digging into someone else's process. I've been repeatedly amazed to find these same issues when really pressing someone for details when trying to help them troubleshoot on-line. Some of these same folks have thought those of us shooting sub-MOA from factory rifles were lying the whole time. One time I sent a guy some of my bullets, ready to load, with an expanding plug and detailed instructions, lo and behold he shot some of the best groups of his life with them....turns out he needed a lot more work at the casting pot.

You can't just slap this stuff together any old way you want and expect to get groups.

Ian said:

Some of these same folks have thought those of us shooting sub-MOA from factory rifles were lying the whole time.

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Yup. That's the beauty of having a match every Sunday. Proof is in the pudding. If you win or place in the top 3 every weekend, you are doing something right. We still have shooters that think conditions have zero effect on the bullet. Either you have a good rifle or your don't. But fortunately, most realize they still have things to learn. There is also a bunch that load at Charlie's shop. They are leveraging 60+ years of experience from Charlie and as a result are not learning a lot. He set up everything and they use his molds, his lead pot, his dies, his presses to load their ammo. Charlie is going to be 81 and he's kinda lost his verve for winning. He just enjoys the match and the BS session that is a major part of the day. So, his stuff is not a good as it could be. Plus, his heart is really not in smokeless. The good thing about Wilton is everybody helps everybody. Pretty much the goal of most shooters on the line is to help the other guy get better so he can beat you at the next match. It's not everyone's attitude, but the vast majority. We do still have a few that want to win above all else or are kinda quiet and just listen and absorb. There is alway plenty to absorb at Wilton, especially if you are running a tad low on BS.

Ian said:

You can't just slap this stuff together any old way you want and expect to get groups.

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wait?.... what,, since when?
comeonman.
the directions say to set the die so it touches the shell holder, tighten the set screw, and size.
the next one says shove/push the bullet down in there with a firm stroke.

To bring the .32-40 saga to a close, today was work thru the problems in search for a solution or solutions.

Made the M-die first. Body machined to 0.318 inches which is the ID of the neck to provide 0.003" of neck tension on the 0.321" bullet. ran a case thru the die and then seated a bullet. Still crooked. So, something else is going on.

The nose punch on the Lee did not look right to me. The punch was about 5/16" diameter and the adjustable punch holder was 0.375". This allowed the punch to wobble all over the place. If a bullet was not hand seated dead straight in the socket created by the M-die, it could push the punch to the side, where it would stay for the seating operation and push the bullet at an angle to the case. Here is what the punch looked like in the holder.



So, took a piece of 3/8 steel bar stock and made a new nose punch. Another thing I noticed about the Lee punch was the cone was small and contacted the bullet at the end of the nose. This made for a bigger moment arm to push the bullet harder to the side during seating if crooked. After several tries at various angles, I settled on a 5 deg angle for a 10 deg cone. This put more surface area on the nose and moved it much closer to the top land of the bullet. Here's the new punch in the holder. The fit was so good that I had to drill a hole thru the punch or the compressed air would push it back out of the holder.



With that done, I seated another bullet. This one indicated about 0.003' runout. I was happy. I then seated another since one good'un does not mean success. That one indicated about 0.010 runout. Hmmmm... Made 2 more cartridges and the runout was somewhere between 0.006" and 0.010".

Craig, another .32-40 shooter at Wilton called me about then because he was very curious about that I was finding. He has the same Miroku .32-40 High Wall as Steve and it is tack driver. I was just starting to look harder at those cartridges to see what else might be awry. It was then that I noticed that the runout was only on one side. That made no sense. I had noticed that the new nose punch was only touching the bullet at 90 deg to the mold seam and not for 360 deg. Looking more closely when I turned the bullet in the concentricity gauge, It had the greatest runout at 90 deg to the seams, but only on ONE SIDE.

Now, I had noticed that some of his bullets had flash at the nose. That means the mold was not fully closed or warped. I concluded that I was making as straight a cartridge as possible with a tapered bullet and the rest was a mold problem.

Went to Steve's place and reviewed all the findings, showed him the new M-die and how it worked. I had full-length resized his Win cases after pulling the bullets I'd seated before I left home. Now I would run the cases thru the dies using his Bair press to see how they would come out.

But before doing that, I asked to see his mold. It is a brand new Saeco, 2-cavity. First thing I noticed was the sprue plate was so tight I could barely move it. There was also a glob of smeared lead on the top of one block half and more on the mating surface of the sprue plate. Flat-filed the lead off both pieces. While I had the sprue plate off, I examined the mating surfaces of the blocks. Nothing jumped out. Took a flat file and gently ran it over the mating surfaces. It revealed some minor bits of lead and some tiny high spots. Removed all of them and then closed the mold while watching with a bright light behind it. It closed, but the back end, nearest the hinge still showed light. I squeezed a bit and it closed. I repeated this over and over and same each time. I removed one block from the handles for more room to work. Took a fine cut round file (looked like a chain-saw file as it was Steve's) and gently ran it thru the pin holes. It dragged ever so slightly. Carefully ran it thru and removed what appeared to be a very small burr on the back pin hole. I cleaned up both pin holes and put the halves together with my hands. They closed up perfectly and easily. Put the block half back on the handle and closed the while looking for light. No light, no need to squeeze... FIXED. Put the sprue plate back on and adjusted and mold was done.

With that done, on to Steve's press to make some test rounds. First one was gorgeous. Maybe 0.003" of runout at the nose. Next one was not as good. Maybe about 0.010" runout. But that was what I was seeing with his oval bullet. Did a check and same thing. But, I did find some round bullets at his place and they made some nice cartridges with about 0.003 runout.

Now, I had found play in his press yesterday. So, I marked a case with a line and seated another bullet. Based upon the wear, the high point of the runout should be opposite the line on the case. It was. So, the press is introducing some runout by having the case tipped forward due to the column wear.

He tried the cartridges I made in his rifle. He tried 3 and 2 went in no problem. 3rd took a lot more effort. He kept them separated and told me which was which. The hard one showed much deeper engraving in the top two lands of the bullet. The other two were engraved in the same lands but not as deeply. Looking at the hard one closer, it was only engraved on one side. The bullet was oblong on that one side. Everything made sense.

So, we discussed flipping the two columns on his press 180 deg because in the down position, the shell holder carrier is rock solid. We cannot tell if the columns are the same on each end. Have to pull the press off the bench to do that and that will take a bit given the cramped quarters of his loading area. But we made major improvements in his ammo today. So, he's going to load up a bunch and we will test them next Wed at Wilton.

Wow, what a saga. Just goes to show that we should assume everything is bad until proven otherwise.

The sloppy, floppy bullet nose punch is one of Richard Lee's worse ideas. He claimed in his Modern Reloading that the punch "floats" and lets the bullet find its way along the case neck without forcing it crooked, although in practice the opposite is true and the bullet goes any which way except straight. Before I had a lathe I was fond of wrapping the punch tightly with masking tape until it was a press-fit into the screw cap so it would stay straight, then going at it with a Dremel and cone grinder so it wouldn't cut a ring in my bullet's ogives.

Working on my double action tonight.

Ian said:

The sloppy, floppy bullet nose punch is one of Richard Lee's worse ideas.

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You know, I never paid much attention to that feature until this saga started. I use Lee dies for my .30-06 and the bullets are dead straight. I checked one yesterday and got about 0.0015 runout or there abouts. I think it probably works fine with a long conical bullet that is seated deeply into the case. I think the bullet tends to straighten itself out. But that will not work with a tapered bullet like this Saeco bullet. With only the two bottom driving bands bigger than case ID and maybe the 3rd at case ID, it's more like a Weeble.

Next challenge is Steve's Meachem High Wall. He had Jimmy Hart put a brand new .30-30 barrel on that rifle. He has not been able to get that gun to shoot. So, once we are sure we have the .32-40 sorted out, we'll dive into that one. I'm not sure if he's shooting PB or GC bullets in the Meachem. But we'll worry about that when the time comes.

Regarding bullet runout: I don’t have a tool to measure that. I have looked them online but couldn’t decide which one to get. Would you be so kind as to make a recommendaction.

Rockydoc said:

Regarding bullet runout: I don’t have a tool to measure that. I have looked them online but couldn’t decide which one to get. Would you be so kind as to make a recommendaction.

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This is the one I use. I have been very happy with it. There are other that work well too.

Rockydoc said:

Regarding bullet runout: I don’t have a tool to measure that. I have looked them online but couldn’t decide which one to get. Would you be so kind as to make a recommendaction.

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The Sinclair is the easiest to use and does work great.

The one I was using (it was Steve's) is the RCBS Case Master Gauging Tool.


It is very similar to the Sinclair in that it uses to "V-blocks upon which the case is rotated. This allows you to set the blocks where you want to measure what you want. I see that the Sinclair appears to use 2 ball bearings to produce the V-block. Nice idea on their part.

The RCBS also has other features that allow you to check case mouth wall thickness, case length and web taper consistency as a check for risk of head separation. Here is the instruction manual if you are curious.


I have a bunch of indicators, so I'll probably build my own. Never had a need before this week. Will probably steal idea from the various OEMs. No sense reinventing anything.

Here is a shop made one that is simple but works well for 30/06 and shorter rifle cases.

So rolling loaded ammo across a smooth counter top and watching for bullet nose wobble isn't adequate?

L Ross said:

So rolling loaded ammo across a smooth counter top and watching for bullet nose wobble isn't adequate?

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Depends on who made your countertop.

RicinYakima said:

Here is a shop made one that is simple but works well for 30/06 and shorter rifle cases.

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Elegance in simplicity. Thanks. Looks like that is going to be the basis for the one I make.

My buddy stopped by with his monthly visit!

Just picked up he latest stamp a d wanted ta show me!!

Silncer co some such. Nice unit can make three
sizes and works really well. we tried it on his lil Ruger LCP and my fav host a Cricket pistol.

i use the RCBS tool also.... sometimes.
it's a bit of money, and if your not using it there's a few hundred bucks gathering dust.

I doubt most handloads would benefit from a concentricity gauge. Accuracy rounds meant for best accuracy at distance from a firearm that can realize the benefit, absolutely. From a defense round at 950 fps fired at 25 feet, waste of time.

I have and use what appears to be the identical one that Rick posted the pic of above. Not the same gauge but the same stand. There's no name on it, I've had it 30-40 years and have never seen any reason to go to a higher priced unit.