30-30 311440 mold dimensions question

[Chris]

I wonder if you guys would opine on this matter. I picked up a nice Marlin in 30-30, looks brand new but made in 1972. Tried a few jacketed loads and it shows promise of accuracy, but of course I intend to shoot mostly cast in it.

Made a pound cast which shows the following dimensions and the typical short throat: The bore is .3094 and inserting the nose of a 311284 that mikes .3023 is a snug fit but barely scuffs the lead.

I got interested in the 311440 reading Paco Kelley who is fond of this bullet, not to mention any bullet called "the flying fist" has got to be tried.

So my question concerns the fact that I'm going to spec an Accurate mold. Owned a lot of molds by different makers and constantly hear good things about Accurate. Ready to order.

This is a bore riding bullet, what diameter nose do you advise I spec for the mold given a hair over .302 bore dimension? Why I ask is that I imagine that my Lyman 450 will bump the nose when sizing base first (generally casting WW+2%). Should I get .301 and assume it bumps to .302 or slightly bigger? Or spec .302 and hope the bumping is of little consequence? If it bumps to .303 it will engrave enough to possibly stick the bullet.

I would prefer to stay with my Lyman sizer and not get involved with nose first sizing. Also I can increase the nose diameter slightly by changing alloy. But what are your thoughts and experience on this?

Chris

 

[Ian]

Bumping is for the birds. Marlins of that vintage don't have a step at the end of the chamber, either, so there's no support in front of the case mouth for some distance. The .30-30 has a lot of taper to the case body so a long, close-fitting, parallel bore riding nose is not the best choice because it will get bent when the cartridge is chambered, or at the very least engraved crooked from the start.

The Accurate 31-165W Ranch Dog copy is pretty good. Accurate makes a great mould in my opinion.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I liked this bullet as did my Contender and H&R before that. It shot well a d hit like a hammer. I also shoot this bullet in my 327 Fed mag as they drop pretty fat!

 

[JWFilips]

The 440 is a real hammer! However I could never get them to shoot in true low node with fast powders for me.
The best groups I shot with them were 10 grains 2400; one being 1 1/4 " for 10 shots at 50 yds with receiver sights on my Savage 340
Traditional Lube ( Ben's Red and BLL) with aluminum gas checks! Only had about 50 pieces given to me by Paul ( KHornet)
Never got a chance to shoot any of them in my Marlin 336

 

[popper]

31-168C PB and 31-184C for GC. Did a 2 cavity one of each. No crimp groove to get in the way. Works in 2000 vintage 336, 3 BOs. I can PC the PB or tumble lube the GC version. Good stability to 100 yds in 1:10 & 1:8. 850 to 2100 fps. I seat just off the lands, not quite as accurate but easier on the guns. Neither have any camming power. Works fine in the CVA scout SS I was shooting today.

 

[JWFilips]

I forgot to add, I got these pre lubed and sized to .310" so have no Idea what Paul's mould dropped at

 

[Chris]

You guys suppose the nose will bump more than .001 in a Lyman 450 during sizing and GC? I don't want to bump, but experience says it will happen to some degree.

 

[RicinYakima]

You guys suppose the nose will bump more than .001 in a Lyman 450 during sizing and GC? I don't want to bump, but experience says it will happen to some degree.

FWIW, I use the same alloy and size the bands .002" and have zero nose increase. A hint, buy his nose punch, it fits perfectly.

 

[Ian]

Order it the size you want it to cast with the alloy you use and Tom will cut it to the size you specify. If you cogitate a little more on the first post I made in this thread you will see why obsessing over nose size is a waste of time in this instance and a tapered or convex tapered design will work better in your application. If you don't have to work the bullet so hard by having to size it so much your overall results will be better.

Maybe this will help:

 

[popper]

Paco did some interesting things but not this one. Similar to the Lee soup can - OK for bolt or SS. Try to get it into the Marlin loading gate. Plus what Ian says. Accurate does have a version of it. All my moulds are tom's. IMHO lube machines are on the way out - too many good tumble lubes available now plus PC/coated. Oh, most marlin 30/30 need 311 sized.

 

[Chris]

Well you guys are talking me out of that mold. Needing to fiddle loading into the gate is a deal breaker. Thanks for the advice.

At this point, why not throw me a few more of your likes from Accurate molds? 150-180 grains. Appreciate it.

 

[JWFilips]

Chris,
I think you would do better with the NOE Traditional lube groove 165 Ranch dog! I have shot this in my 1970 JM 336 Marlin and it was a shooter ( Fast and Slow) Super Great in my 340 Bolt Acton Savage ! Not much difference in impact because these are a hammers also! I pretty much think these are the best bullets for a 30/30

 

[Ian]

I agree with JW and had one of those moulds. Arsenal makes them too. The reason I recommended the Accurate version is twofold: NOE's will be too fat in the nose for most Marlins unless they have been firelapped (all his moulds seem to cast oversized), and Accurate's version has a real, full-width base band in front of the gas check. You can order .310" from Accurate and get a real .310" bullet (within his tolerance window).

 

[fiver]

I agree with JW.

to be on the that isn't why grumpy side of the discussion, Ian's picture sorta shows the issue, but it doesn't quite explain the why accurately in this situation.
the Marlin issue is with the 'throat',,,, think of something more like a big circular opening of nothingness.
you need the Ranch Dog design to hang that nose out and over that opening so it can guide the rest of the bullet into the throat and barrel on the other side.
so back to the picture, think more along the lines of ignoring the nose out at the end there, and moving more diameter back to where the air gap is before the rifling.
what that does for you is not rely on the front half supporting the back half while it is trying to fill in the gap while a bunch of pressure is helping it collapse.
but it allows the front half to be pushed across that gap while the back half follows because it ain't got nowhere else to go.

 

[Chris]

Thanks for the explanations. I'm aware that I can spec dimensions from Accurate and I intend to buy from him. I own quite a lot of molds from various makers but I have been wanting to try Tom's from what I keep hearing. Off topic, was casting today with a 5 hole Arsenal .44-245 PB. Nice mold and I would buy from them again.

So how about the Accurate mold numbers? 31-165 D & 31-165 DG? 31-165W?

 

[popper]

The 165d is close to RD, the front drive band gives support but Marlin throat may not put crimp where you need it. You can trim brass to fit. The huge meplat is not really needed and reduces BC. I don't like square LGs and TL grooves are harder to cast, for me, fill out.

 

[fiver]

IMO the regular grooves are an upgrade from the T/L grooves, you know unless your gonna P/C then [shrug] pick one.

 

[Spindrift]

I have the NOE TL311-166, with gas check. It shot very well for me in a Marlin 30/30 micro groove rifle. It shot well with both regular lube, and PC. You can also lube the TL-groove bullets in a lube-sizer, if you want to.

TL311-166-RF-AI4 | NOE Bullet Moulds

noebulletmolds.com

 

[Bret4207]

Chris, I have a 6 cav 311440 clone out of a GB from The Site Which Shall Not Be Named a good 12 or 15 years back. I've used it in the 30-30, 308, 32-20 and likely a couple others. I haven't put a lot of time into it, but it shows promise in the 1800fps area using old WW and shooting them basically unsized. Certain death on Porkies. If I ever get to where I can get back to LL to get that Gravely I can lend it to you. Our best to you and yours!

 

[Chris]

Chris, I have a 6 cav 311440 clone out of a GB from The Site Which Shall Not Be Named a good 12 or 15 years back. I've used it in the 30-30, 308, 32-20 and likely a couple others. I haven't put a lot of time into it, but it shows promise in the 1800fps area using old WW and shooting them basically unsized. Certain death on Porkies. If I ever get to where I can get back to LL to get that Gravely I can lend it to you. Our best to you and yours!

Hey Bret! Thanks for the offer, would very much like to try that mold. Got your Gravely up by the road on a pallet, but the attachments are under the snow down back. Come down in April when we get a thaw.