.38 Dimentia

[Bisley]

I had been querying about the best dies to resize .38 cases for cast bullet use. Modern carbide dies squeeze down the case until it is two narrow. This leaves three unfortunate results. The bullet sizes on seating, becoming narrower and leading upon firing. The brass is overworked shortening
case life, and of course, that hideous hour-glass looking finished reload. Didn't get that with older steel dies. I don't have those Pacific dies anymore...

So I bought a Lee FCD to resize. I compared it with the external case diameters I encountered with other tooling I already have. Here are my results:

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Edition, 1980: .38 and .357 Magnum cases are listed at .379 external diameter along their entire length.

Cases after firing in my .357 Magnum Colt King Cobra: .380 at the head, .380 at the mouth.

RCBS Carbide sizer dies: Finished case external measurement: .376 at the head, .372 at the mouth.

Factory expander plug is .3555" below the bell. RCBS Cowboy expander plug measures .3565 below the bell.

Vintage (Green cardboard box with waxpaper packing) RCBS .38 Super steel resizing die, without decapping rod or expander button: Finished case measures .379 at the head, .376 at the mouth.

Lee Factory Crimp Die: .380 at the head, .378 at the mouth. After resizing cases with the Lee FCD, the .3585-diameter Saeco #382 bullets were not snug enough in the mouth to prevent falling back into the case.

I have completed case prep, resizing 100 Peters .38 wadcutter cases, and 100 mixed brass nickel .357 Magnum cases, with the vintage .38 Super dies and will load them tomorrow. A gentleman from the church and I are going out to the range tomorrow, against steel plates, and I'll see if they lead in my King Cobra or Officer's Model Target. I don't think a .002" squeeze will be too much for the bullets.



If we go to the range, I'll have a report on leading. I am not bench-resting these. Any comments or observations are welcome.

Bisley

 

[Ian]

I think you have it well in hand. .002" tension on the bullet should be plenty.

 

[fiver]

PITA ain't it.
get another set of dies with the same names on them and you'd end up with .001-2 +/- again.
throw in a couple more brass makers [shrug] and you get to start over again.

 

[358156 hp]

You can also partial length size with whatever straight case dies you prefer. Just leave the bottom half or so of the cases unsized and run the case into the sizing die just a little bit longer than the length of your bullets. You'll need to decap the cases with a universal die, but you can also use full length dies from a larger caliber. For example, you could use a 38 Spl shell holder in your ram, but use something like a 44 mag sizing die to decap. Just make certain your dies aren't the ancient ones that decapped with the flaring die.

 

[Brad]

Or you can make a size die that minimally sized the case and decaps at the same time.

 

[CZ93X62]

I have gone to steel sizing dies in 45 Colt and 44 Magnum. I have the great luck of owning an RCBS T/C sizer (1979-made) that sizes right at .379" with both 38 Special and 357 Mag brass of the makes I use.

 

[358156 hp]

Or Redding Dual Ring Carbide dies. My concern there comes from my experiences telling me that cracked case mouths are my main cause of handgun brass failures. I've only had a few cases that cracked at the base. So a lot would depend on how much the case neck gets worked (sized down). I see Dual Ring dies being a potential benefit to accuracy, but not so much for case longevity involving case mouths.

 

[dannyd]

Duel ring works great I have 38 and 357. 80,000 rounds no problems.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I think a lot of the die manufacturers err on the side of smaller dimensions for sizing dies to eliminate the problem of the occasional tight chamber. Add to this the undersized expanders most dies seem to come with and everything ends up smaller.
The expander can be fixed with a Lyman "M" die style expander but the sizing die is a bit harder to correct.
I'm not going to give up carbide dies and go back to lubing cases but it would be nice if someone offered some options.

 

[Bisley]

I'm not going to give up carbide dies and go back to lubing cases but it would be nice if someone offered some options.

Here's another thing I learned,

I cleaned the cases first in Palmolive dishwashing liquid. It left enough of a film on the cases that I did not need case lube for the initial resizing and decapping with the steel .38 Super die. Then I washed them in hot water and laundry detergent and they dried up. I am now looking for a dry media tumbler to polish them up.
I tried Lyman "M" dies years ago and could not make them work. If it gets that severe, I might go the custom die maker route, and have some old steel dies polished to a larger diameter.

 

[Brad]

I have pretty much decided that brass is an expendable. If I can get 10 loads on a case I am happy enough.
I have this far more with 45 Colt than anything but 38 special is second. I use Hornady or Dillon carbide dies for 38 special and I figure on 15+ loads per case. Case mouth splits are the problem and changing dies won’t solve that.

 

[RBHarter]

Last time I looked CH4D send 3 fired cases custom dies were about the same money as Redding shelf sets . I have a set of pre 4D 32 Rem I stole at the asking price , they are really nice . Like black hard chrome Snap-On nice .

 

[Petrol & Powder]

The Lyman "M" die expander has a small "step" that expands the case mouth to accept the bullet but it does not flare the case mouth. The sides of the case mouth remain parallel instead of funnel shaped. Now this may seem like a trivial difference in style but what it allows is the lower portion of the expander to be customized to provide the correct neck tension without the case sizing the bullet down. The "Step" is just big enough to prevent the case from shaving the bullet while it is being seated and it helps to start the bullet in-line with the case.
I used to think the M die expander profile was just a gimmick. If the lower portion of the expander was the correct diameter, why does it matter how the case mouth is shaped ? I would adjust the conventional expander so that it flared the case mouth just barely enough to accept the bullet. That generally worked with jacketed bullets but it was never ideal with cast. Most expanders were either too small in diameter or didn't go deep enough into the case or exhibited both problems. The "M" type expander allows you to customize those dimensions and allows for the bullet to be held in-line with the case prior to seating, this is particularly useful when using a progressive press.

I've been told by older reloaders that RCBS offered a special expander for their old steel dies that was made for cast bullets but that item is no longer available.

So that solves the inside dimensions but we're still stuck with the over-sizing of the case by most carbide sizing dies. The Redding Dual ring carbide sizing die may be the most elegant solution if their dimensions work for your needs.

The conventional wisdom is that steel dies don't over-size the case as badly as regular carbide dies. But steel dies require case lube. I don't mind using case lube for a few rifle cartridges but I'm NOT putting up with that chore for handgun cartridges. So carbide dies for me.

I'm with Brad in the opinion that brass is expendable. I get a lot of cycles out of my 38 Special casings before the case mouth splits, so whatever I'm doing right, it's working for me.
Casings for semi-auto cartridges generally get lost long before they fail so that's a self-correcting problem.

 

[Charles Graff]

I use 50s to early 6os RCBS steel dies in 38 spl, 357 mag, 44, and 45 colt. All problems solved. before the dreadful little yellow thingies came into popular use. no need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Fiddler]

Another possibility is a 9mm Luger die. I just checked 2 R-P 38 cases, as fired they were .3805. 1 went through a Lyman carbide die, brought it to .372. The other went through a Lee carbide 9mm die, brought it to .375. That works well for my limited 38 shooting.
Your results WILL vary!

 

[CZ93X62]

Brad spoke wisely when it comes to practical brass life. I try to preserve it to reasonable extents, but I have yet to attempt annealing any brass of any caliber. I know that borders on heresy, but until shortages and/or illegality obliges it--I will view brass cases as expendable and replaceable.

 

[358156 hp]

It's interesting that Petrol & Powder mentions oversized case mouth expanders. Back in the olden days I would take the case flaring stem from my dies and that them to a friend who had a lathe and would true & slightly reduce the flaring spud to allow more consistent case neck tension on my revolver loads. He would also ease the flaring angle a mite to provide a smoother transition to the flare., some of those early dies seemed to be a bit rough on case mouths. These were the days when I only bought Hornady Durachrome dies. I still buy them used on occasion when I have specific needs that aren't met by the newer designs. Like steel sizing dies or even carbide dies for semi-autos that don't leave a bulge down by the extractor groove.

I hadn't thought about machining case expanders for ages. Now we have so many specialty dies available that it doesn't seen necessary anymore. I also have a lot more disposable income now then I did in those lean days.

 

[Brad]

Might be why I made my own powder thru expanders for the Dillon? I wanted less expansion and just a kiss of flair.
I am always amazed at how having a lathe has changed my view on reloading dies and such.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

If you're using some powder through expander, like say the powder funnel on a Dillon, you're pretty much stuck with a custom made expander if you want something other than the Dillon powder funnel. This is possible but not as cheap as other routes.
However, if you're using a single stage or turret press and not using a powder through expander, the replaceable expander spuds really open up a lot of possibilities. You can get just about any configuration you want or make the one you want.

 

[fiver]

you can also use those expanders on the Dillon.
not really a convenience on a 4 hole 550 but not a big deal on the 5 hole 650.
there is also the standby of treating all your cases the same and pre-sizing them before cleaning and loading like we do with rifle cases.