40 loaders

fiver

Well-Known Member
rich alright...LOL,,,, LEE rich.:rofl:

well Allen.
we got all kinds of way past lead stuff now.
ITX-10, ITX-13, sphero tungsten, heavy shot, tungsten matrix, TSS.
TSS in number-9 will cleanly take a turkey at 40 yds, no problem, it carries the weight and retains it's shape like a champ.
any of the above will out perform lead in any situation except one where you want the lead to flatten out and drag on the surface of whatever it hits, there lead has the malleability advantage.

the downside to all of the above is cost, all of it makes steel shot look cheap-cheap by comparison.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
OK......a few of those I've heard/read about, but haven't pursued in any depth.

Steel has never impressed me, and I haven't run it much. My chief concern is effect on fixed chokes or the tubes that replaced them. I've run 12 gauge with Mod and I/C and haven't seen any damage, but my small-gauge guns all have fixed chokes (full) so steel doesn't sound like a good idea.

I am not super-concerned about cost as much as I am about adaptability to small-gauge fixed full chokes--availability of load data and components to support the substituted shot--and getting as close to chilled lead shot performance as possible to enhance that adapability. Once THAT is figured out, I'll see if CA accepts it as legal to hunt with. If the substitute performs closely to that of lead shot in appropriate-for-venue chokes, I'll make practice loads with lead shot like always and use the pricier shot for hunting--much like I load duplicators of my carry loads in sidearms and rifles. If that makes sense.

I GREATLY appreciate this info, sir. It's time for me to do a bit of R&D, and see what bubbles up. If you have some shortcuts or recommendations, I'm all ears. THANK YOU!
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
You weren't a-kidding about those boutique shot prices. Hijo la!

I think some load data from Ballistic products might be the best first purchase. ON IT.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I think they do that so you make damn sure you don't miss.

what the heavier stuff does allow is for you to use a smaller shot size, which means more pellets per oz.
since your using a tighter choke you don't need near as many pellets, so you can use a smaller [and faster] payload.
an ounce of number-8's [off the top of my head] is about 400 pellets.
an ounce of number-1 steel is about 80 pellets.

in your 20/28 ga. you'd use about 3/4 of an ounce of shot so your rolling out about a box of shells per pound used.
the advantage then becomes one of pattern integrity, speed, or downrange energy versus the other shot choices.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I ordered a couple recipe books from Ballistic products last night. We shall see what obtains after some reading and conjuring.

Again--many thanks to Fiver for opening my eyes to the potential here.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
those guy's are good to deal with.
make sure to sign up with your E-mail, they will send you free shipping or no haz-mat deals about every week.

they ain't the cheapest nor the most expensive.[but about right for fair]

also some of their loads are a little bit on the wild [optimistic] side sometimes, and they will show their loads with their [mostly exclusive] products so don't expect to see stuff like a win AA type wad in their loads.
 

Rally

NC Minnesota
Lamar,
You forgot Bismuth!
Lots of folks still using 410’s for rabbits and squirrels too.
If I were looking to load 410’s I’d be checking garage sales for a used Mec 600 Jr. Then I’d order a new set of 410 dies and maybe sell the dies that came with the press. Seems to be lots of shotgun stuff at garage sales since shot prices went crazy.
 

Ole_270

Well-Known Member
Be very careful with the BPI data, several posts around the web showing independent testing being way high on pressure.
 

Ole_270

Well-Known Member
My younger Grandson has taken a turkey the last two years with a single shot 410 Rossi and TSS #9 shot. One at 10 yards the other at 20 out of a blind. Gun was a hand me down from my older Grandson, his cousin. Son in Law recently brought down his MEC loader and supplies for the 410. I've run MEC 600/700 loaders in 12 and 20 since the mid 1960s, this was a bit harder. Only loading AA 2 1/2" so far, got a bucket of 3" to do when I get the larger charge bar. Using 296 and clay buster wads. Also brought a can of Lil gun a coworker gave him for it, but that may get used in the son's 22 Hornet instead.
 

MikeN

Member
I've had a Ponsness Warren Duomatic 375 in 12/20 gauge for years. I see they make it in .410 also. Has any one here used one? What do you think of it? Been wanting to shoot my M42 Winchester more.
 
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CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I'm not real sure about the exotic shot and loads, but I want something compatible with existing hulls and wad columns if possible. The ITX-10 at first glance looks like it might be the ticket, since it is just slightly lighter than lead and (if I read the info fully) soft enough to not mar barrel steel or swell fixed chokes. If proprietary hulls and columns are needed, then OK--but I still want ballistics that match reasonably close to lead-shot outcomes. Steel is OUT--not happening in my 28 and 410 guns. I do want to hunt with them legally in this idiot state.

Lots to learn yet. I "get" the idea that Fiver started out with and others now mention about extending range potential and lethality with these high-tech shot loads. I'm not ignoring that, but it isn't my primary focus--yet. If the AA hulls and wads are a no-go, then we'll tackle that along the way.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
just an Idea but Bismuth and Tin IS a pretty good plug and play alternative to lead shot.
[I didn't forget it Rally, I just kind of skipped over it]

I know you were eyeballin that stuff as an alternative for rifle shooting too, but a single drip type shot maker and the appropriate dripper size might allow you to make your own shot for a semi reasonable price.
in the 28 you'd be right back where you were with lead.

IMO the 410 needs all the help it can get, and with it's tiny payload any kind of pellet count and down range energy boost it gets is a big help.


I learned shot shell loading on a 375 back in umm? the early 70's [before metallic reloading for sure]
about all I load on now is P/W machines, except for one 3-1/2" Mec and the 366 I use to pre-size cases with, they are all I have anymore.
they just do what they are supposed to do.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
P/W machines are NICE, for certain. Like you, I started on a MEC machine, and my 12 gauge 600 Jr. is from the early 1980s and was an upgrade from some older version that was new in the 1960s. The 600 Jr. does what I want it to do, in all four gauges.

I'll look at bismuth/tin, I have read accounts of the substance crumbling as it passed through chokes. In Ian's work, it took rifling torquing and shot accurately for him. That question bears assessment, since its cost is less onerous.
 

MikeN

Member
Thanks fiver for the info from your experience. I started on a Pacific 150? in 1962 and got the 375 in 1970. I haven't been loading shot shells for the last ten years, but that is about to change this coming winter. Going to try to get back into the clay target game next summer.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I'll look at bismuth/tin, I have read accounts of the substance crumbling as it passed through chokes. In Ian's work, it took rifling torquing and shot accurately for him. That question bears assessment, since its cost is less onerous.
Remember that I had the bismuth alloy modified, the normal stuff is pretty terrible for bullets (or shot, for that matter). Bi/Sn alloy in the 88/12 range like shot pellets shatters like glass when squeezed or shocked and makes lousy bullets due to being brittle, crumbly, and tendency to shatter before it deforms. Standard shot and similar Bi/Sn alloys being terribly brittle the reason why I was looking for a better solution for you in the "environmentally conscious" states and found a reasonable (but still not perfect) solution by adding a small percentage of antimony. The antimony increases the malleability, cohesiveness, and flow of the Bi/Sn alloy considerably....and then it shatters. I think the percentage of deformation before crumbling is increased enough in the revised unleaded bullet metal that it would make very satisfactory shot, although it will be about 15% lighter than pure lead (if memory serves....).

Commercial bismuth shot doesn't have the malleability of the revised Rotometals Unleaded as far as I know, and I did look into it when doing lead-free research.

I don't see why you couldn't drip your own on a small scale and choose your own size and alloy that way. I've made pretty passable #8s with a soda can, needle, and propane torch before using wheelweights..
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Rotometals has their own line of shot offered on their site. I'll need to verify its composition before buying and test-driving. This may not be a "Plug & play" process. Ultimate polygraphy may involve old-school butcher paper downrange. It will be a fun winter in the desert.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
94% Bi/6% Sn. Likely extremely brittle. Have to try and see, maybe smash a pellet and see if it crumbles, or like you say pattern it. You could examine the shape of the pellet holes with a loupe.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
The more I read, the less likely that "Plug & play" is a practical reality. I hate most aspects of living in Kalifornistan.