401 Winchester Model 1910

[Missionary]

Greetings
Anyone have any experience with one of these beasts ?
I seem to have an inclination to anything caliber 41 and the 401 Winchester looks fascinating.
Been searching about the brass issue and it looks like 414 Supermag brass is the easy way to make 401 Win. brass. That is a plus as we already shoot several types of 414's and have a box of Starline handy.
So if you have any background with a Model 1910 I would appreciate your input.
Also if you have or have seen a die set for sale let me know. Thank you.
Mike in Peru

 

[RicinYakima]

About 10 years ago one of the State Troopers I know inherited one. Lyman 410426 mould was used and sized .410". Cases were very old but once fired. They were sized in a 40/50 Sharps Straight full length sizer, that was just barely small enough. Started at 20.0 grains of H4227 and got it to cycle at about 25 grains (about 1600 f/s). Cases were a pain all the way around, stretched, dented and had length splits. If you can make decent cases and don't mind lots of work, it is doable. p.s. The rifle kicks much harder than what you would think!

 

[Missionary]

Thank you Rich !
That is good info to have. The 4227 loads are the basic info found on old information that was read. Good place to start.
I think will do a chamber cast first off and probably can come up with a die body that will get me working. We have plenty of molds in .41 so should be near set.

 

[Eutectic]

The rifle kicks much harder than what you would think!

The breech bolt in the Model 10 could be the reason for the felt 'kick'..... It is HUGE!! It must weight a pound or two! I guess those ol' W.S.L.'s were just 'blowback' design and I think the .401 runs upward towards 40,000psi

This said I've always had a 'yearning' for one.... W A Y back to the point I saw a box of ammo now and then on a shelf somewhere in my travels! This yearning became stronger when I read in the "American Rifleman" (I think) that they used them in WW1 bi-planes for aerial combat! I would love to have been in that front seat with one in my hands!!

Keep us informed of all the details when you get your hands on one Missionary!

Pete

 

[Missionary]

Will do Eutectic. That is one fine tree you are standing by !

 

[fiver]

with a diameter of 410 and a case similar to the 414 the reloading dies would be the 414 dies.
I remember doing some reading about the 401 when I got my 351 and it seemed the 401 was the easier of the two to get up and going at the time.

Mike do a quick search at the Boolits site, it should pull up some first hand accounts.

 

[Missionary]

Roger that Fiver.

 

[Missionary]

Greetings
Recoil... been doing some reading on this Winchester 401. Learned "stout / hammering recoil" is produced when the recoil buffer (semi hard material that sits between two pieces of steel) gets so compressed from long use that the heavy sliding breech unit impacts the steel recoil shoulder directly. Think missing the nail head ...

Yesterday with the help of our son in the hot part of Arizona a Winchester Model 1910 caliber 401 was secured for $535... Looks like we have everything else we need but the time to lay our hands on the beast and get to 1st checking the recoil spring and buffer then a chamber cast and form brass. Looks like another fine summer waiting to happen.
Mike in Peru

 

[9.3X62AL]

Congratulations on that acquisition, Missionary!

No experience with either the 351 or the 401 Winchesters, and given my usual attraction to boutique/designer/unusual calibers--that is a little surprising. The WWI history of the rifle cited above is interesting, as is the 351's use as a prison guard & law enforcement weapon in some frequency. Neither caliber made the grade in sufficient numbers to survive commercially into the 21st Century, but I think both could have utility in the deer woods at closer ranges. Both could also be first-rate home defense tools if reliable function can be achieved.

 

[Eutectic]

Mike,

Whatever Winchester used for a buffer material probably hardened with age and could have even fell out in pieces! Modern materials will/should fix it better than new.
I'll keep an eye out for your good results. Glad you found it so quick!

Pete

 

[shootnlead]

My friend has a gem of a 351...he loves it and says it is a good performer on deer.

Although, he seems to have a problem keeping fodder for it...tried to get me involved in helping him put some together...I politely bowed out of that.

 

[Missionary]

Howdy Shootnlead
Have no doubt that 351 would smack corn crunchers with authority. That brass is 1.5 inches long with lots of room for a180-200 grainer and lots of 4227.
You might let your friend with the 351 know brass can be made with 357 Max brass as my reading on the 401 referred to that caliber also. I am wondering if these old Winchester brass were not viewed by Elgin Gates as "good ideas" for the Supermag brass.
Maybe you can use that rifle as a good pointer for him to get involved with hand loading.

 

[Missionary]

Howdy 9.3x62al
From what I read the production numbers were not great. 21,000 Model 1910's and about double for the other calibers. But individuals who used them seldom complained. They seemed to work well for out to 150 yards. The ballistics for the .401 are right in there with the crono reading I get with the 414 Supermag 336 Marlin. I can get a bit more out of the 414 but not much more. Bet if the 401 had been in a locked breech rifle things would be real different. Especially if the magazine was another .20 longer.

 

[fiver]

I have a 49 count box of factory 351 ammo.
it was 50 but I sent 50 357 max cases and one round to someone that had access to a lathe.
they unfortunately had life get in the way and I lost both.
[I could use the 357 brass since I have one of them, but that's how things go.]
I did luck into a die set for super cheap so I guess things work out.
I wish I hadn't passed on that old Lyman 351 mold I found, especially since I have 2 tins of 348 gas checks sitting here.

oh sometimes Graph and son's has brass proper head stamped and stuff.
and Berry's [I think] makes plated 351 bullets.
but you might find some 401 brass there too.

 

[Missionary]

Thanks fiver Have to take a look there. Used to buy a bunch of powder and primers from them.

 

[Bret4207]

Some years back, IIRC, Holt Bodison (sp?) did a pretty good article on the 401 in The Gun Digest, the big thick annual book, not the magazine/sales paper. Not sure what year, but you might be able to find it. IIRC it had quite a lot of info and I was quite intrigued with the idea at the time.

 

[Missionary]

Thank you for that information... will try to locate the article.
A Winchester 1910 .401 has been secured and waiting our return.
What we have learned is there are rifles out there sitting in homes not being fired in many years in northern hunting states where there were / are popular as woods rifles. Lack of affordable ammo has rendered the Model 1910 near unusable ... except to fellers who do as we do...

 

[quicksylver]

How would you compare these to the Remington Model 8...?

 

[Missionary]

No idea ??? The bit I know is that the Model 8 has a rotating locking bolt head ( similar to AR's ) so it is more propellant efficient. Plus it would not need a 2 pound plus bolt assemble to retard recoil. Have to be a pound less. But we do not own a Model 8 (FN 1900) nor have we shot the 401 yet.. That will be next year.

But from what I have read the 401Winchester with the 250 grain bullet had a moderate recoil which the heavy bolt helped absorb. We have a Marlin 336 in 414 Supermag and we do not find the recoil of a 250 grain bullet at 1900 fps being uncomfortable. Possibly the many reports of 401's being a 'hard kicking" rifles were written by individuals who do not regularly shoot real "thumpers". Cannot imagine anything that would tend to be much more violent on the shoulder than 12 gauge solids at 1550 fps from a Mossberg pump.

 

[fiver]

I think people feel the mass of the bolt moving rearwards and confuse that with the rounds recoil.
the 351 shouldn't be any more than a 357 mag with 180gr bullets.
the 401 wouldn't be any worse than a 41 magnum in a lever gun.
the big mistake with both rounds was they were just put in the one gun.
if a revolver, or single shot rifle, had been brought out as companion pieces we might probably have never seen a 44 magnum or a 357 magnum.