A different 452460 Ideal

[358156 hp]

I recently won this at auction. It's a 452460 Ideal that appears to seriously predate Lymans production introduction date of 1950 for the 452460. This version has a slightly heavier base with less weight in the nose as compared to the versions we've all seen plenty of times. .

 

[Ben]

Yes, no doubt about what you're saying.
I've NEVER seen one that looks like that ? ? ?

Ben

 

[Rick]

Looks similar to this Lachmiller 200 gr 45.


.

 

[RicinYakima]

You have a jewel! It is a mould made with an Ideal cherry prior to Marlin purchasing them and going bankrupt in 1915. The blocks are post 1927 Lyman Gun Sight company made, but used the early cherry. As soon as they wore out, Lyman redesigned the bullet to the modern version of '460. The older version required work to feed through unmodified 1911's, where the later one will feed in almost every 1911. This design is not found in detachable blocks very often but mostly in the one piece Ideal moulds. HTH, Ric

 

[358156 hp]

This helps a lot Ric, you're making my day! I originally thought I had mismarked blocks, then I couldn't find anything in print that matches my moulds profile. Doug Elliott gave me a bunch of research material on Ideal a couple of years ago, and none of this is in there either.

Persistence pays off occasionally. This mould was listed on GunBroker for a long time, but with the wrong picture in the auction. The pic shown was for a later 358429 so I asked the guy for the correct pic, and it took him ages to get it corrected. I was looking for a 452460 for a hollowpoint conversion. Finally the guy posted the correct pic and I bought it instantly knowing everything is out of sync with the blocks and profile. I cast a few samples today, and it now goes into the treasure box. I simply must buy more Ideal manual reprints.

 

[Rick]

Perhaps Glen will chime in here also. He has a pretty good collection of the old Lyman manuals.

 

[Brad]

Nice buy Bob. If anyone can find the odd old mould it is you

 

[RicinYakima]

Ideal handbook #38, page 107, has the illustration of the older profile. I do not know the production dates, but it was probably a special order from maybe 1912 - 1915 and not made again until the 1930's. This is one of the out of order mould and cherry numbers, as it had a lower number under Ideal. The 460 puts it in the 1930's but I can't put my finger on the original one.

 

[358156 hp]

I remember reading somewhere about some of the goings on at Ideal after the end of the Talcott era, and during the beginning of the Lyman era. Inventory was being reduced, and old designs recycled to (in my view) burn up some of the dead stock. IIRC, there were leftover components and tooling that went back to the Barlow era. I think this was covered in the Lyman Centennial Journal a bit. I guess my mould was a part of that.

 

[RicinYakima]

I think you are correct. I once heard from a rabid Winchester collector: "Winchester never throw a screw away if they though they could make money on it."

 

[9.3X62AL]

"Poetic" Lyman mould cavity design specs? Say it ain't so!

One need only look as far as Lyman #358429 and #429421 to see Lyman "creativity" in full flower. That a #452460 might vary from "standard" only serves to prove The Lyman Rule--"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Lyman has "imagination" in case lot quantities.

 

[358156 hp]

As I look back on Ideal/Lymans history, one question comes to the forefront over and over....

"Didn't anybody ever write anything down?"

 

[freebullet]

What a neat find!

Learn something new every day.

 

[358156 hp]

"Poetic" Lyman mould cavity design specs? Say it ain't so!

One need only look as far as Lyman #358429 and #429421 to see Lyman "creativity" in full flower. That a #452460 might vary from "standard" only serves to prove The Lyman Rule--"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Lyman has "imagination" in case lot quantities.

Yeah. Ask Elmer Keith what he thought of Lymans "imagination". That reminds me, there's a 358429 from the same era as this mould floating around here somewhere unmolested. I wonder what the bullets weigh....

 

[Glen]

Neat! I've got one like that out in the garage. I'll have to go pull it out and refresh my foggy memory about the details.....

 

[Glen]

Yay! I found it! My mould is a virtual duplicate of yours, the main difference being the assembly number is 96 instead of 228. It's a single cavity Ideal mould, unvented faces, 2 diagonal alignment pins. I bought this 10-15 years ago simply because it was different, intending to research it and see what I could learn. It got stuck in the mould box and forgotten about, until you posted your pictures. Thanks for the background Ric!

 

[Glen]

Here are a few pictures. I have never cast a bullet with this mould (as you might have guessed with all the grease that's in the cavity).

 

[358156 hp]

Great mould Glen! I really have a thing for the unvented Ideals.

 

[Rick]

Glad to hear that's grease in that mold. When I first looked at the picture I thought it was rust.

 

[jrmartin1964]

A page from Lyman's Ideal Handbook No.38 (1951), illustrating No.452460 in its original form, with the note: "Wad cutter similar to new commercial bullets in appearance and performance. Do not crimp in groove." The new commercial bullet referenced was Remington's 185-grain Targetmaster Wad Cutter, introduced to the shooting public in 1949/50. In reality, Lyman's new mould was hardly even passingly similar in appearance to Remington's new offering. By the time of Handbook No.39's publication (1953), the design had been changed to the more familiar shape, which more closely resembled the Remington bullet.