A possible suitable sub?

[Lost Dog]

Ok. I've been watching folks post how they've managed to locate Johnson's liquid wax at this location and that. Knowing full well that this product is discontinued. So being raised to view the practical aspects of life and spending nearly my entire adult life collecting, comparing, studying, and matching evidence, I am quite patient and willing to investigate. Further, while in the service, I encountered a defined term for a missing part/ingredient called a "Suitable Substitute" that was in essence a replacement or near replacement for the primary object or substance. In my years of gunsmithing and such I have run into more than one that a missing or broken part was not to be found as it is discontinued for an out of print firearm. Thus finding a "Suitable Sub" was a solution without having to manufacture it. And since the second ingredient of Ben's Liquid Lube is discontinued, I believe I've located a Suitable Substitute in the form of Holloway House Quick Shine multi-surface floor finish. ($5.47 at Walmart.) Containing polymers and plasticizer suspended in a solvent with a leveling surfactant, I believe I'm off to a good start. Not required is the reinvention of the wheel, so it was mixed as Ben did by cutting the mix in half.

The mix was somewhat thick to my thinking but a moment or so of rolling some .358429's in the mix did cover well as when I tried straight LLA long ago. Then I began to think it was a mistake remembering how long Lee's stuff took to semi dry. But in about 30 minutes it was hardening well. I suspect a little longer will dry the few coated rounds completely.

Sadly, I don't have a single empty case to load them into when dry! That's what I get for keeping every round ready to go! But I'll likely be shooting some of my lesser liked loads and will quickly have the test rounds ready to try.


Again, this is by no means conclusive or proven at this point. I'm merely trying to locate a Suitable Sub for the stuff that Johnson's has dropped from their product line. Obviously Ben found the magic mixture and we are all grateful to him. With luck, his pioneering effort will enter into this experiment for an alternative to those unable to locate Johnson's liquid wax.

 

[S Mac]

Awaiting test results. Do you have any original Ben'c LL for a comparison?

 

[Lost Dog]

No sir, I have none of Ben's Liquid here. Sorta striking out on my own in a manner of speaking. I have multiple reports of the original success. I'm trying to duplicate it with a different floor finish in current production with open availability. So if things go according to Hoyle we may have an alternative. At least that's the goal.

 

[yodogsandman]

It would be nice to have an alternate liquid wax to use. Good luck with your testing.

A very little BLL goes a long, long way. Shouldn't you try to hunt down some Johnsons One Step, No Buff, Liquid Floor Wax to be able to evaluate and compare your tests. It's still out there for those that look hard for it.

 

[35 shooter]

I've heard of experiments going on with wood preen and a couple of other waxes over on the cb site.
Several of the current liquid waxes on the market "may" mix with alox and give a dryish finish like JLW and i hope something is found. If nothing is found at this point, then maybe some future product that comes on the market.

Not to put a damper on any attempts, since you don't have any JLW to try first and compare with, but i can tell you from a lot of first hand experience with JLW in BLL what a substitutes criteria will have to be.

1. mix with alox and give a dry light coat finish.

2. give no alox purge shots

3. first shots in the group from a cold, clean, or fouled bbl.

4. same performance(poi and group size) at 15* as 105* with 115* heat index (hottest i've tested it at so far and this after the rifle and ammo sat in that heat for 4 hours before and during shooting)...Ben's Red does the same thing for me in those conditions.

5. further cold weather testing this year by another member here was at -7*, -9*, with performance as usual. And since then i "believe" at very close to -20*(not sure on that one...maybe they will chime in).

6. 3 light coats with no leading at least to 2500 to 2600 fps.
(haven't tested any faster than that, although others may have.)

You have a good idea for starting on it now, because if it works for you in spring and early summer, you'll have something to judge by in the late summer heat and the winter cold.

It would be nice if a sub can be found....good luck on it. In the meantime, grab any JLW you happen to find.

 

[Lost Dog]

Gentlemen the whole reason I'm experimenting with the liquid wax from Holloway House is exactly why I'm not going out burning up fuel and trying to hit every home improvement center and lumber yard in the state. I'm testing currently available liquid wax and not one that's discontinued.

In a further attempt to think outside the box, I coated several of the Keith SWC's with just straight Holloway House Quick Shine to observe how it performs independent of the LLA mixture. Two coats of the quick shine were applied in under an hour. The bullets have an extreme slippery feel and zero tacky or gummy appearance like with the Lee stuff when applied. And that tacky and gooey surface was why I came to dislike LLA in the first place. Filth in my loading dies is not on my short list of fun things either, so if this works, great. If not, then I've got a decent floor finish for the bathroom. I'll know in a couple of hours either way.

 

[Lost Dog]

Well thus far this experiment has proved to be successful with a Keith SWC in a .38Spl loaded from 4.2gr and 5.2gr of Unique. 20 rounds and zero lead. Accuracy is acceptable for bullet design and loads. The 50/50 mix of LLA and Holloway House Quick Shine has covered the projectile properly and provided enough lubrication for a .38Spl +P.

Running with the floor finish alone as applied with two coats, the lighter load did little in the way of fouling. However, once velocity/pressure increased the forcing cone and slightly into the breach area began to accumulate lead. Not heavy, but enough to eliminate further attempt to use it independently from other lubrication.

So, with this experimental phase with two loads in a 38Spl being without issues, it is safe to say at this point that the possibility of a Suitable Substitute exists. Though far from complete in testing, it shows promise. I will test several .30 caliber bullets and some .45 caliber as well in my rifles. The real hardcore test there will be my .45-70 that leads up if you breathe on it wrong.

 

[yodogsandman]

Thanks for reporting back on your initial testing. Maybe it is an acceptable substitute. Further testing should prove it out.

 

[Lost Dog]

You bet. The real test for me will be in that Marlin Guide Gun that is a lead magnet! If it survives that and high speed stuff from an '06 then I'll view this with more confidence. And please remember, I am by no means a fan of tumble lube. So this is reaching out into something I had little faith in from the beginning. So if it does manage to work well and I get excited over it then it is something. And if it fails in the rifles, well then I can say I tried and I'll have that floor finish for the house.

 

[Elkins45]

I experimented this summer with a mix of something (it's written down somewhere) that performed just as well, at least for the handgun applications I typically use liquid lube for. The main thing I remember is that I used Coleman fuel as the volatile solvent to thin it.

 

[Ian]

The dog in y'all's avatars sure gets around!

 

[Lost Dog]

Mine's a husky/wolf mix, but there is some color similarities there true enough. But Elkins 45 has a fine looking animal there as well. I appreciate a fine looking pup!

And I thankfully appreciate the information on the solvent solution too. I normally do not use any liquid lube for bullet preparation so any information to assist is surely welcome.

 

[fiver]

part of the secret to the 45/45/10 lube was adding in the solvents, after cooking off the solvents that wouldn't allow the JPW to dry.
the second additive allowed the mix to dry faster and kept it soft enough to use.
the point being that you might not find a perfect replacement but might be able to modify a close-nuff replacement.
looking at msds sheets until 2-3 am is part of the lube making fun.

 

[Lost Dog]

Yeah fiver, I really am not a fan of liquid lube and the whole tumble lube scene. In fact I personally detest Lee's Liquid Alox. The slimely sticky gooey nasty stuff along with its stench just makes me want to throw it in the trash. But if anything, I'm not totally opposed to something that works. Ben's revolutionary approach is a proven example of making it work. The solvent in the Johnson's product was mineral spirits, and that is the solvent in LLA. Very compatible. Oddly enough, the primary solvent with the Holloway House Quick Shine is water! Something that on its own would fail with LLA. But when introduced with prior blending in the HHQS, it performs adequately enough for proper and rapid evaporation. Trusting the mineral spirits in the LLA to do the same. Thus far, with hot .38Spl's it worked. I intend to test further into rifle use to insure its working function then I'll stop. I'll likely not use this much at all in the future as I said I'm not a fan of tumble lube. My main purpose is to explore currently available liquid wax to allow an alternative to traveling countless miles in search of a dwindling supply of discontinued products. However, if it performs well in my lead magnet .45-70 who knows? I may yet grow to like it.

 

[fiver]

I'm not a huge user of tumble lubes either but I do use them for a couple of applications.
the 45-70 is one and my 25-20 is another.
sometimes I look at a big pile of boolits waiting to go through the star and think man...if only.

right now I have some old oversized 358477's that are more like grunt work than sizing.
and I think they are gonna get a super thin coat of alox before going through the sizer.
so having a lube that coats the bullet has it's uses even if it isn't in the gun.

 

[Lost Dog]

Managed to get out between downpours from the monsoons here. Popped some 45-70 loads coated with two coats of what I now call, for lack of anything else, Lost Dog Lube. Fired a total of 15 rounds and it shot rather well in my stubby Marlin. Now normally there is lead in the bore. Fact of life around here. But cleaning revealed only a trace in the rough spot from previous damage. Bullet was a Lyman 457124 cast from unknown stuff (allegedly COWW but doubtful ). Removed some lead but was almost dust rather than the streaks I usually have.

Unsized Ideal 454424 SWC'S with two coats of LDL, and another 15 rounds and zero lead in the bore. The load was around 1250fps and the heavily load used first was around 1100fps. Neither super loads, but if you knew how badly this Marlin leads up, then you'll understand the mild celebration. Thus far the Lost Dog Lube is working.

 

[Brad]

454424 in a 45-70? I would expect it to lead, most likely well undersized.

 

[Lost Dog]

A very old Ideal single cavity that drops at .4575". The bore of the Marlin slugs out at .4565". That short Keith SWC sips down the bore great. A fluke discovered sorta by accident.