Advice: Lead alloy and bhn

[462]

If the Lyman manual you are referring to is the 4th edition of their cast bullet handbook, its author casts his center fire cartridge bullets of Linotype.

 

[Winelover]

Both Lyman and RCBS use linotype as a standardization alloy...........resulting usually in undersized molds, for any alloy that is softer. Linotype makes beautiful but brittle bullets. Fine for paper targets, not so much hunting.

Not a issue for those of you that PC but some of us don't. I prefer to give my money to the small custom mold makers and be able to specify what diameter I want for a specific/softer alloy.

 

[Red Bear]

i use lead from anywhere i can get it. usually mix soft lead with wheel weights 50/50 for most of my shooting. i do not hunt so its just for better half and i at the range. not sure about everyone else but my range scrap comes from small indoor range . first time i melted it got quite a suprise . never expected there to be so much leftover powder. it lit up as i poured it into pot . melted the 5 gal bucket scrap was in and burnt wall and ceiling of garage. put it out and changed drawers. melt scrap outside now on. my 50/50 mix will give me 12 to 13 bnh air cooled and 24 to 26 bnh water quinched. seems to work well for me. i generally have three alloys pure soft lead for older low pressure loads 32 sw 38 short and longs. then 50 / 50 mix for most other hand guns. and lyman #2 ( my own mix ) 90% lead 5% tin 5% antomany for rifles.

 

[RBHarter]

With extended testing of say a known or repeatable alloy ingot testing would be useful if you had values from that lot of alloy and bullets cast from that lot also . Get a little something extra or short in the next lot batch and all bets are off .

 

[burbank.jung]

Because lead alloys cool and "harden" differently depending on the speed at which they cool, eg- water quenching bullets gives you a different Bhn than air cooling. All you're getting is a relative difference between your various ingots. If you water quenched some ingots (not recommended!) you'd get a much different reading than air cooled. And using pencils is guess work to start with. If you really are going to jump whole hog onto the "Bhn is the answer" bandwagon then get a real tester like the Cabine Tree or LBT.

Lyman says a lot of stuff about cast that ranges from good advice to outright nonsense, depending on what info you're talking about. I will repeat again, FIT IS KING. There is static fit and dynamic fit and Bhn is part of dynamic fit, but only a part of it, not the whole ball of wax. Yes, a lower Bhn bullet can group as well or better than a higher Bhn bullet. It all depends on FIT. You want proof? Go get some of those "HARDCAST" commercial bullets with the pretty crayon lube and load them up full bore and blast away. Unless they just happen to fit well, and that covers a myriad of elements, you will not have good groups and you'll be spending time getting your barrel free of lead. But those bullets are HARD, right? You can take a Bhn 30+ bullet and lead the barrel into a sewer pipe easily. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt!!!

Go check those ingots in a few more months, they Bhn will probably have changed again and will for several years.

I understand some of what you are saying. I bought hardcast years ago and thought the leading was a natural result of shooting lead bullets. Then, I spoke this the old man named Dardas... Now, I slug all of my barrels that I plan to shoot lead through. Bullet fit is already checked off. What's the next best lead casting book after Lyman, the Bible of Lead Bullet Casting? So, my original plan of using my lead ingots was to take an even quantity from each ingot and melt it in a pot so that the alloy will be more likely to be the same for everything. Is this what you do with your range scrap?

 

[burbank.jung]

I've quenched ingot lead before because I was in a rush to clean up my casting area. They intially tested hard until I let them sit for awhile. That has made me think that tempered lead bullets have a shelf life.

 

[RBHarter]

Although not the science answer ......
The shock cooling raises the hardness to nearly it's maximum for the alloy more or less over night . Nature takes it course and the hardening sort of goes both ways the shock hardening softens while the time hardening hardens . ........that sounds dumber than I thought it did in writing ......

So you cast some WW and AC it comes up to 16 bhn . When you WC it , it hits about 22 maybe 24 , it's a 22+ in a week . In a month maybe 2 it'll be a solid 21 to a soft 22 and someplace about then it starts to creep back up . About 3 yr it starts back down and will end up around 18 . Of course depending upon the exact make up of the alloy and things like temps in storage building hum and 900 other minutea .

 

[Mitty38]

Don't want to muddy the waters but.. I cast 3 bullets when I make my Ingot. Measure and test one immediately, then the other two, for hardness and growth over time. Then I have a base line for my bullets IF I need it. I will know how the lead is going to act in advance of using the ingot for casting. Write the results on the ingot box.
I never quench.

 

[Dimner]

..... So, my original plan of using my lead ingots was to take an even quantity from each ingot and melt it in a pot so that the alloy will be more likely to be the same for everything. Is this what you do with your range scrap?

My process is similar. I get my range scrap in 5 gal buckets. I smelt/clean 2 buckets worth of lead and then pour ingots using a 9x9 cake pans from the dollar store (make sure to spray graphite lube into the molds prior. Ask me how I learned that one! ) The giant ingots end up about 25lbs each. I'll mark ingots from the first 2 buckets as "A". next 2 as "B" and then C for the last batch.

Then I blend the batches together with 2 ingots from each batch. Each new blended batch is poured into 2.5lb ingots an marked again as RNG1, RNG2, RNG3.

When I use range lead for what ever project I am working on, I try to take an equal number of ingots from each range batch of the 2.5lb ingots.

I call this process three card montey

 

[burbank.jung]

Don't want to muddy the waters but.. I cast 3 bullets when I make my Ingot. Measure and test one immediately, then the other two, for hardness and growth over time. Then I have a base line for my bullets IF I need it. I will know how the lead is going to act in advance of using the ingot for casting. Write the results on the ingot box.
I never quench.

Mitty 38. Do you think this is better than testing the ingot for hardness. Having a mold to cast three bullets while smelting the range scrape to ingots will not be difficult.

 

[burbank.jung]

My process is similar. I get my range scrap in 5 gal buckets. I smelt/clean 2 buckets worth of lead and then pour ingots using a 9x9 cake pans from the dollar store (make sure to spray graphite lube into the molds prior. Ask me how I learned that one! ) The giant ingots end up about 25lbs each. I'll mark ingots from the first 2 buckets as "A". next 2 as "B" and then C for the last batch.

Then I blend the batches together with 2 ingots from each batch. Each new blended batch is poured into 2.5lb ingots an marked again as RNG1, RNG2, RNG3.

When I use range lead for what ever project I am working on, I try to take an equal number of ingots from each range batch of the 2.5lb ingots.

I call this process three card montey

Dimmer, have you had any problems with accuracy using the same alloy for 38spcl, 45, 9mm, 40, and .357? Can you load a hotter load with such an alloy from actual experience or do you rely on a gas check or harder blend ( maybe CWW )?

 

[burbank.jung]

Although not the science answer ......
The shock cooling raises the hardness to nearly it's maximum for the alloy more or less over night . Nature takes it course and the hardening sort of goes both ways the shock hardening softens while the time hardening hardens . ........that sounds dumber than I thought it did in writing ......

So you cast some WW and AC it comes up to 16 bhn . When you WC it , it hits about 22 maybe 24 , it's a 22+ in a week . In a month maybe 2 it'll be a solid 21 to a soft 22 and someplace about then it starts to creep back up . About 3 yr it starts back down and will end up around 18 . Of course depending upon the exact make up of the alloy and things like temps in storage building hum and 900 other minutea .

I was wondering about the time frame. A fun experiment to me might be to WC a pc bullet and then submerge the shank in cold water and remove the tempering with a torch. Then see if the tip will more readily expand while the shank and gas check can handle the higher pressure and velocity as the shank can retain the hardness for - like you said - a month..

 

[Mitty38]

My thinking is it gives you a closer Idea. For what is going to happen to a bullet close to the same size over time.
Once you cast with that lead. A bullet will then cool and similar to another bullet. A 1 lb block of lead will not.
I think nothing can account for every variation. But with the bullet you can get an Idea of growth over two or three months, after casting.
To me growth over time is a more important thing to worry about then hardness. You measure that in thousandths. So bullet is the only way to tell,at least close enough for a growth rate if any.
Especially using scrap lead, and with the saving grace of powder coating for your hardness. Seams the penciled hardness test has worked well, to let me know I am, or will be, in the ball park.

But this is just my opinion, even though it has worked for me so far, others here have more time in then me.

 

[burbank.jung]

My thinking is it gives you a closer Idea. For what is going to happen to a bullet close to the same size over time. Once you cast with that lead. A bullet cools and changes more similar to another bullet then a 1 lb block of lead will .
I think nothing can account for every variation. But with the bullet you can get an Idea of growth over two or three months, after casting.
To me growth over time is a more important thing to worry about then hardness. You measure that in thousandths. So bullet is the only way to tell,at least close enough for a growth rate if any.
Especially using scrap lead, and with the saving grace of powder coating for your hardness. Seams the penciled hardness test has worked well, to let me know I am, or will be, in the ball park.
But this is just my opinion, even though it has worked for me so far, others here have more time in then me.

I've read about cast bullet growth, checked some .38-148 WC that's been on my shelf for 1-1/2-2 years and haven't found any swelling.

 

[Mitty38]

I've read about cast bullet growth, checked some .38-148 WC that's been on my shelf for 1-1/2-2 years and haven't found any swelling.

I have had growth a couple times, but do use a lot of plumbing pipe, wheel weights and mystery metal. Plus I tin up with pewter, so that may be why.


I have about 30 lbs of the growing stuff left.
That stuff (it has a bit of tin) I just mix it 1 to 3 with my range scrap. (I very rarely quench, and never my pistol bullets.)
Then powder coat and shoot in my 9mm now. Usually a week or two, after casting. The 9mm ammo does not sit long enough to grow( if it even would grow after being diluted down),or change hardness,which is usually between 11 and 12 BH when I mix it up.

Plus, if it would grow. Tis not a big concern because the 9mm is very forgiving. Also the loads for it, are just used for mashing a 6 inch steel swing plate at 10 yards

 

[Mitty38]

https://www.artfulbullet.com/index....by-glen-e-fryxell-and-robert-l-applegate.194/
@burbank.jung have you read this? It was one of my greatest learning aids. Introduced to me, from the fellows here. Well worth the time to read all of it. To me it is my cast bullet bible. I often refer back to it.

 

[Bret4207]

I understand some of what you are saying. I bought hardcast years ago and thought the leading was a natural result of shooting lead bullets. Then, I spoke this the old man named Dardas... Now, I slug all of my barrels that I plan to shoot lead through. Bullet fit is already checked off. What's the next best lead casting book after Lyman, the Bible of Lead Bullet Casting? So, my original plan of using my lead ingots was to take an even quantity from each ingot and melt it in a pot so that the alloy will be more likely to be the same for everything. Is this what you do with your range scrap?

Slugging is fine, it helps keep you from starting off way small. But that only takes care of the static fit side, and you don't mention a chamber cast so the guys that are all about throat size will tell you you only got half the story there. Slugging doesn't address dynamic fit. Static fit is BEFORE you light the primer, dynamic fit refers to what the bullet does after the primer is lit. From what you describe, bullet fit ISN'T checked off. I'm not trying to make it harder for you or talk you down, but I truly believe you will be better served by forgetting Bhn for now and seeing what the alloy you have actually does instead of assuming it's not "hard enough". Your plan on mixing all the alloy together is good. I make batches as large as I can, probably something in the 100 lbs area. Mix it, flux it, try not to let it get too hot and put it into some form of ingot. If further evidence down the line makes you think you need to juice the alloy in one direction of another, then you have a fairly consistent base alloy to start with.

There is no "best" book on casting. The information you're seeking is on these pages on this site. Glenn Fryxells on line "book" is good, but nothing beats having the ability to take your observations and put them up in front of people who've traveled the road and spent countless hours trying to figure it all out. The heading says "handguns" but most of it transfers to rifles too. http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm


ETA- Mitty beat me to it. Good on ya man!

 

[Bret4207]

I was wondering about the time frame. A fun experiment to me might be to WC a pc bullet and then submerge the shank in cold water and remove the tempering with a torch. Then see if the tip will more readily expand while the shank and gas check can handle the higher pressure and velocity as the shank can retain the hardness for - like you said - a month..

That's basically the "Bruce B Softnose" technique. It works with the right alloys at the right pressures. IME, expanding cast in flesh is an iffy proposition. There is nothing I'm aware of that mimics living tissue very well, so it's a guessing game. Others seem to have it down to more of a science, perhaps they'll chime in.

ETA- I'm not sure you can use a torch on a PC bullet. Again, others may know.

 

[Bret4207]

Dimmer, have you had any problems with accuracy using the same alloy for 38spcl, 45, 9mm, 40, and .357? Can you load a hotter load with such an alloy from actual experience or do you rely on a gas check or harder blend ( maybe CWW )?

Gas checks make life with cast exponentially easier. Plain base makes it simpler. I use the same alloy for everything from 600 fps 32 S+W bullets to 160 gr 357 at 1200+ to 190 308, etc at 18-2200. My PB limits are in the 14-1700 area, depends on the gun/mould/powder combo. I've gone to 2000fps with limited success, but I'm lazy and switched to a GC design and went on my merry way. Powder coating is a whole 'nuther ball of wax and I can't help you there, but it's supposed to be magical is some instances, YMMV.

I think you will find that cast accuracy can be manipulated more easily with things like powder/charge, case prep, seating depth, etc than merely from a Bhn #. Sometimes it makes a difference, but not always. To quote Bassackwards, "It doesn't matter, until it does".

 

[Bret4207]

I've read about cast bullet growth, checked some .38-148 WC that's been on my shelf for 1-1/2-2 years and haven't found any swelling.

You'll need a tenths reading micrometer for that, not a dial caliper. That's a mic that reads in ten thousandths. And the growth/shrinkage is different between diameters, eg- a 22 cal probably being different than a 45 cal, or maybe I should say the potential for change because it's not a constant thing in all alloys.