An Old Friend Comes Home

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
We had a knock down, drag out some years back on the other site when I opined there wasn't a whole lotta difference between a 9mm Para and a 38 Spec. The gnashing of teeth and rending of clothes, complete with ashes smeared on faces, was intense. That's the problem when you have guys that started this game 20 years before some others and have watched things change. In actual ballistics, there isn't a heck of a lot of difference between the 2 with the right guy loading for both in the right guns. But one group always thinks 38 Specials have to be loaded as though every gun was Aunt Bettys Iver Johnson.

Allen, tried 125's vs 158's on car struck deer. The 158's win over time. 125's sure do develop an impressive fireball though!
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
OK, thought so. Yes, the 1400-1500 fps 125gr 357s can be a really light show.

I have a load for my .38 Super that will push a Hornady 124gr JHP to chroned 1410 fps in a full sized
1911. Pretty much matches the 125 gr .357 "super loads" that were considered the hot setup
in the 1990s in police use. And 9 in the mag and one up the spout beats the 6 shooters a bit.

Bill
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Mine isn't too bad because it is in a Wilson LE Comp, and the compensator helps with the muzzle flash
a good bit. I wouldn't feel really too bad if I had to use that gun and load for defense. I choose a .45 ACP
1911 normally, but that would be a good second choice. Heavy load of W571/HS7 which is no longer made,
but I have several pounds of. I suspect that AA7 MIGHT be used to duplicate it, but have never tried.

This is not mine, but a web pic of one just like mine.



Bill8472
 
Last edited:

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
IIRC what I basically found was that the 125's worked as good as the 158's on head shots at close range. They didn't do so good when you had one dragging it's guts behind it and you couldn't get closer than 40-75 yards. At that range you tend to shoot at "the big part" and they just didn't penetrate like the 158's, which would often go through both sides on smaller deer. The 125's also hurt the ears a lot more and you couldn't see squat for a few seconds after firing at night, not that the 158's were much better as far as flash. The 158's also hit more to where the fixed sights were regulated for. In social interaction the 125's are probably fine, but if the BG is behind a car door wearing heavy clothes the 158's would probably have done better. Happily, I never had to put that theory to the test.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
My shop didn't change out our duty 357 load until ~4 years ago, from the 158 JHP to the FBI 125. (No hurry!) For goblin-stopping, there are no "bad" loads in the caliber, but I agree with Bret that the 158s are a better overall performer. For darn sure, the 158s shoot more accurately than do the 125s, in both 38 Special and 357 Magnum. I have strived mightily to get varmint weight bullets to shoot better than the old standard, but they just don't--and I am talking about 10+ examples in each caliber and the many barrel lengths they came in. I speculated at some length on another site why I believe that is the case, and lived to regret having done so. My overwhelming ignorance and pervasive heresies were discussed in some depth and breadth. The earth really is flat. Or square. Or something.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
And while I am fomenting heresies and fostering insurrections, let's go "all in" and agree with Bret's assertion that the 40 S&W does a right fine job of sorting out the evil-doings and malefactions of our Predator Class, 2-Legged Division. My shop was a little late to THAT party, too--1994--and after-action assessments of net yield put it neck-and-neck with the 45 ACP. My EDC is a Glock 23. Ballistically, it is the updated 38/40 in most respects--I do like the pistol's starting allotment of 14 bangs-before-lock-back over the 5 or 6 before the CLICK that sounds like a pipe being dragged across a cattle guard, but if all goes well 2 to 3 good hits tend to settle matters with either one--or with the 45 ACP as well.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I will vouch for the 158 over the 125.
the 158's penetration is far superior even at much lower speeds versus the blazing fast 125 hollow points.
one of the things that fascinate me is bullet terminal performance, so I spend a lot of time looking at pictures and descriptions of both before and after and what happened in between.

I'm still not a fan of the 40 cal but much of that comes down to not enough or too much penetration.
the not enough is severely not enough and when it's swung the other way it really goes the other direction and hampers the effectiveness.
the 9mm suffers from the same fate only worse because it has less weight and more speed.
I guess they all kind of come down to what do you prefer a bullet to do.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I wasn't the guy espousing the 40, but I like it fine. I'd prefer it over the 9 for sure. I'm still torn on the auto vs DA revolver thing. Lotsa bang time is great, so is pointablity and long range striking potential. In an urban/suburban environment I swing to the semi, in the sticks a DA Rev in 357. Either way, I don't have to worry about that anymore!

Agree in the accuracy of 158's over 125's for sure.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Now boys we mustn't let this wander off into expandable solid , HP , huge meplat territory ......... Some goof will load a nose out 148 WC in a 9mm just to make a point about 800 fps wrecking balls in 9/38/357 .
I shoot more or less a 38-40 RNFP and TC in the 40 at 180gr x 940 fps , it isn't a 900 x 230 but it's more than a 125,147,158 at 1100 down to 900 . Both bullets start at almost .300 on the nose and 4" at 25 yd sort of Weaver stance is good enough for intended use .

I still believe if you can't poke a hole in it at least hit it hard enough to break important stuff . Should I ever have the unfortunate opportunity to need such a thing and it gets down to that point , broken and disabled is as good as leaking and disabled and easier to clean up after the fact . Although leaking is generally more certaintly permanently disabled .
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I think there is one "constant" that runs through all of these caliber wars and stopping power discussions--no one is completely satisfied with the performance of ANY of the mainstream defensive sideiron and holsterplastic calibers. They all CAN work well, if directed correctly. All of them can fail or work poorly under convoluted circumstances, too. There are no guarantees. There are MANY biases, and we cannot completely quantify results mathematically nor can we predict outcomes.

It is a balancing act, with a lot of physics involved as well as the interface with a none-too-stable firing platform (us.....). My answer as The Gun Guy in my extended family is as follows--try out a LOT of calibers and systems at a rental range. Learn what your own limits are in terms of recoil responses and accuracy maintenance in the context of the largest bullet diameter--heaviest bullet weight--and highest velocity you can reasonably manage. Don't over-think it. There are no "magic bullets", in spite of the BS claims made by ammo makers and their ad agency drivel drivers.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
And that's about all I got to say about that ......
 

Attachments

  • FB_IMG_1551044197931.jpg
    FB_IMG_1551044197931.jpg
    33.6 KB · Views: 35

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Excellent commentary, Al. I have told many folks that the best gun in a gunfight is
the one you have with you, with the corollary that you must also be able to shoot it
well. THEN, once you figure out how big a gun your lifestyle, body type and commitment to being
armed will support, go for the largest caliber and heaviest bullet you can manage well.

A .380 in your pocket beats the hell out of that .45 ACP left in the car or at home because it
is too big and inconvenient for your dress style, physique and commitment to being armed.

I guess I am a bit thick. Don't understand the photo, RBHarter, unless it is to say that either one
can work.

Bill
 
Last edited: