Any advantage to sorting?

[Will]

In the words of Fiver “It only matters if it matters”

 

[Walks]

I remember My Dad casting WC's 60yrs ago. He used a "Potter's" Pot, which I think held 10lbs.
And 2 Lyman #358395 Hollow Base molds. One on the right of the Pot and one on the left. The bullets from each mold were never mixed and loaded and shot as a stand alone batch.
They were visually sorted and then Weighed. Sorted into batches by weight. Any bullet that was off by 1.0grs was discarded.
He bought 1,000 rds of Remington Match ammo and kept each box as a single stand alone batch. Five+ bricks of the same lot of primers and a 4lb can of Bullseye were dedicated to loading those thousand cases. He loaded those cases with a Tru-Line JR and 310 dies, adjusted to partial size and minimum special die for expanding. Hand seated every primer. Minimum crimp, if you could call it a crimp. Only closed the case mouth against the bullet.

And it paid off, He had a Trophy Case next to the glass cabinet that held his Least favorite rifles & handguns. He was of the Opinion that burglars would not look farther then the low-end guns in the cabinet and not look any farther.
He didn't consider his stepdaughters boyfriend. She new of the secret hidden compartment in the attic. Only 5 people did. My Dad, his 2nd wife the homewrecker, Me, My little Brother and the stepdaughter.
I was stationed on the East Coast and My little brother was dead 2 months before the Burglary.

Those Colts, all Pre-War. A Woodsman 1st model Target, an Officers Model Match 7 1/2", and a 1911 Completely Accurized by The old PACHMAYR'S Gun Shop.

GEEZ, I REALLY got off target. Sorry Guys.

I REALLY HATE AUTO-CORRECT!!!!!

 

[Bret4207]

Not to worry. I'd hold a grudge and vent every now and again too.

 

[dale2242]

My hand gun bullets are visually perfect. Not weighed.
My rifle bullets are visually perfect and weighed.
I don`t shoot rifle cast that much.
I am retired and have plenty of time...dale

 

[JWFilips]

Well, Even though I only shoot Light "Low Node" rifle target loads I sort everything into 1/10 grain increments after Powder coating and sizing.
Maybe a waste of time to many but it is part of my casting regimen

 

[Ian]

A half pound variance in press handle pressure when seating the bullets will have more effect on groups by far than 2% weigh variance (+/- 1%).

 

[fiver]

handle speed and pressure can change a lot of things.
head space, case length, I can change the ogive shape and nose shape on a swaged bullet depending on how I set up the die and how I operate the handle.

 

[Ian]

That too. I can't brain today. What I meant was variance in pressure required to keep the press handle moving while seating the bullet because of neck tension variance.

Here's a great photo that captures the effect, wish I had documented every one of these from the past few years but this is a particularly dramatic example. This batch of ten cases I was loading over and over again during a workup was getting ready for anneal due to too many cycles and seating pressure was distinctly light on three of these, so as usual I segregated them so they didn't ruin the main group and shotbthem by themselves. One actually would have been in the group but the two WTH! flyers would have those who didn't feel the bullets seat scratching their heads.

 

[S Mac]

Now that I something I have never considered. I have noticed the difference in pressure required seating but never segregated, that could explain some of my fliers. Hmm...

 

[RicinYakima]

A half pound variance in press handle pressure when seating the bullets will have more effect on groups by far than 2% weigh variance (+/- 1%).

Which is why I neck turn cases to fit my bored out sizing die; clean the necks with brass brush and steel wool; and use low mechanical advantage press, or arbor press. If seating force is not the same each case, it goes into the fouler box.

 

[Ian]

Neck turning helps a little, but after about 4-5 reloadings the variances start to show up. My 30 XCB rifle with a .337" neck, mandrel-formed, turned necks, tempered in a pot of near pure lead, and loaded for half a thousandth total neck clearance with bushing dies, is extremely finicky about seating pressure unless taper-matched bullets are used with zero jump. If the bullet's initial moving resistance is extremely high, the gas pressure opens the whole neck up before the bullet even moves and neck tension is at that point a complete non-factor. I know because I tested various degrees of neck tension and observed the effect it had on POI with different bullet shapes, alloys, and amount of jump. If the bullet is is initially only held by the neck and has some room to move before contacting the throat, then consistency of bullet pull becomes critical.

 

[fiver]

the zero jump taper fit is how I approached the XCB.
I set the tension with a ball 1/2 thou smaller than the bullet and let the bolt set the OAL.
I done that so the engraving pressure took place of the neck tension and I could run the cases as tight as possible to the chamber walls.
it also let me tune things by changing powder speed instead of messing with tension and OAL.
as soon as I went to fixed ammo I had to start all my data sets over again, and decided I'm just gonna run it with the matching tapers doing the work.

 

[Charles Graff]

It depends on your personal accuracy standard. If you are out to win and important match, you employ all the tricks you know of, to get whatever tiny edge you can. I grit my teeth when I see folks online talk about "blasting ammo". I find that concept repugnant. Somewhere between ultra match and blasting ammo you will find me. I do visually sort cast bullet, trim revolvers cases etc. etc.

 

[Brad]

Visual sorting is always needed in my opinion. Bad bases are rejected but I have shot some otherwise ugly bullets with no ill effect.

 

[Rick]

It depends on your personal accuracy standard. If you are out to win and important match, you employ all the tricks you know of, to get whatever tiny edge you can. I grit my teeth when I see folks online talk about "blasting ammo". I find that concept repugnant. Somewhere between ultra match and blasting ammo you will find me. I do visually sort cast bullet, trim revolvers cases etc. etc.

Yep, but what is even more important when going to the line to shoot an important match is confidence. You know that all those bench rest tricks you used to make the best ammo you know how would probably at most get ya a 1/10 inch or so better groups. You also know that you've done all you can to make the most uniform ammo you know how. Confidence in your equipment at a high level of competition is priceless.

 

[Intheshop]

Charles,you should put me on your ignore list(if not already) because,"Blasting" is my all time favorite thing to do. And with as premo of ammo as I know how to make. Just prefer a "fine red mist" to target shooting,consequently the better the ammo,the better your chances.

Dang neighbors had a big,dress up Fox hunting "show" today,and didn't get any blasting done...... would've been a little effed up so,used the chainsaw for an hour or so?

 

[fiver]

I think you can get to the point where the ammo is better than the fire arm is capable of shooting it.
but so what?
the gun is more than likely to shoot better than me anyway.

 

[RicinYakima]

Rick, I've had that conversation with several people about doing all the little things. All of them are the ones that say "shoot five 5-shot groups" and if it isn't statistically better by 4% than it isn't worth it. Those of us that do the little things seem to do better in the matches than those that don't do them. I can't prove it, but it certainly makes me feel more confident. Ric

 

[Ian]

Most of us are hobbyists and don't hold advanced degrees in statistical analysis. We don't need that to succeed, either, because we get to define our induvidual definitions of it rather than the scoreboard.. If you can't average better than 1.5 MOA for 20,000 five shot groups in your favorite precision bench rifle, then the statistics are meaningless anyway. I think a lot of us fall somewhere in the middle, using small data points to guide us toward what changes help and which ones don't.

 

[CZ93X62]

It is difficult to classify one's self and his/her place in the continuum of hobbyist depth-of-involvement. I am pretty sure that I spend much of my time here in the shallower end of the pool rather than the deeper, but I do enjoy the sojourns into the depths.

I said earlier that with cast bullets I likely fire 25 centerfire handgun rounds for every CF rifle round I fire. I take pride in casting a good, consistent bullet, and have a pretty harsh and unforgiving eyeball rating scale as they drop from the mould. I look again when readying for sizing/lubing, and again after that step is complete. I think I catch most of the evil ones.

I don't shoot 'seriously'. Any 'serious' shooting (God forbid its necessity.....) will get done with factory ammo. Hunting is no longer serious, I can afford to feed my family from the grocery store these days. Shooting is for FUN, IOW. Statistical analysis......not so much.