Attempting HV through my Mosin

[BHuij]

You know what, I actually did de-bullet when I extracted the case, just re-inserted the bullet into the case mouth after the fact. It pushed out of the bore very easily from the muzzle end, easily enough that I don't think I deformed anything. But it didn't come out perfectly clean and together with the brass like I would have hoped.

Given the higher-than-optimal BHN of the alloy, I'm inclined to think the weird narrow section between the rifling and the case mouth is just incomplete fill out due to hard alloy rather than an actual narrow bottleneck in my chamber/throat. When I slugged the barrel in the "traditional" way of forcing a fishing weight from breech out through muzzle right after obtaining the rifle, it was .314" in the grooves. I really walloped that thing (with love of course) trying to get a good fillout in my pound cast, but I guess not enough.

*sigh*, guess I need to scrounge in my dirty/unprocessed SOWW bucket for the old, mega-soft ones. I just don't have a good source of near-pure soft lead.

Alternatively I suppose I could heat up my SOWW alloy really nice and hot and see if I can skim any hardening agents off the top. I don't have much use for ingots that are 8.4 BHN.

I'll come back when I have a proper pound cast

 

[Ian]

If you freshly cast a slug from bare sticky weight metal and use it the same day, it might do the trick. Should be about 6 bhn. I melt pure lead in a spoon and warm the mould with a propane torch and cast a few wrinkled but mostly filled bullets when I'm doing a pound cast.

 

[fiver]

i'd push a slug into my 30 or 31 cal swage die and make a bullet.

 

[BHuij]

Hey folks, I'm back to necro my own thread. The Jacketed Performance bullet I ordered from Mr. Veral Smith in February arrived this week (ha), and I think it helped me visualize how things needed to fit a lot better. In any case, when I came back and read through this thread again it made a lot more sense what all you guys were saying.

I think I'm going to be ready to order a new mold soon. Before I pull the trigger on anything, I will need to actually do that pound cast. Turns out having a baby limits casting and shooting time

But assuming I have a throat at .317 tapering down to a groove of .314, I want to fill that as closely as I can while avoiding unsupported nose or bore-riding designs. I want to stick with a flat nose for terminal ballistic purposes. Weight in the neighborhood of 160-180ish grains is great.

The Accurate mold that Ian recommended seems to fit the bill perfectly: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-175B-D.png I would just use the order form to set the rearmost band to .317 and the frontmost to .314, and be off to the races. Problem is this mold starts at $90 for the cheapest aluminum 2-cavity. That's okay, but if I can do better than that on price, I'd like to. Be gentle, I'm coming from Lee molds that run $20 to $45 or so

I found another bullet that seems to be a very similar design is available from Arsenal molds: http://arsenalmolds.com/bullet-molds?product_id=84 I have reached out to see if they are willing/able to cut one of these a bit larger for me, as well as implementing the tapered driving band diameters. Assuming they are, this one is more like $65, which is significantly better for my wallet.

Anyone have recommendations for another mold that could be workable? Again, I'm willing to do some grinding on the mold cavities to get diameters where I want them if necessary. Any other light you can shed before I make a final decision is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Ian]

Congrats on the kid, they change everything.

Add sales tax and shipping to the price of the Accurate mold since you're in Utah, so a little over $100 for a 2C aluminum. However, afaik if you get anything else (even the actual Saeco mould, https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...ered-style-175-grain-truncated-cone-gas-check), it either won't fit or you'll have to make a nose-bump die to shape it so it fits halfway decent. In other words, save money on other tools and processes by getting a mould cut that will fit in the first place, and make sure the gas check shank is a good fit for .30-cal checks.

 

[BHuij]

So here is a happy coincidence...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Saeco-2-ca...=item3b1fa2b025:g:jgcAAOSwv5xbw4RK:rk:17:pf:0

I'm assuming cast iron is tougher to grind out for increased diameter on certain driving bands vs aluminum, but unless there's a really compelling reason not to try this one, I may go with this option instead of shelling out $100.

Edit: Yikes, Saeco handles are ridiculously expensive. That completely negates the advantage of buying this mold; Accurate molds will fit my Lee 6-cavity. Never mind haha.

 

[JonB]

I've modified Lee handles to fit a Saeco 4c Iron mold.

 

[Ian]

Good luck winning that bit for less than $100. Watch it and see what happens.

 

[S Mac]

I have also used Lee Six cavity handles on a Saeco four cavity. I have also lapped several iron moulds, takes some time but doable.

 

[Ian]

One thing about that auction mould, it's good iron and the equivalent from Accurate will be close to 150 bones. If you can lap the bands without changing the dimension of the gas check shank it would be a plus. Getting both cavities identical will be tough, but you can cast from only one, or modify only one, cast from both, sort them, and shoot the smaller bullet in .30-cal rifle if you have one.

 

[fiver]

or powder coat, or paper patch.

Brandon.
save up the cash, do the pound slug and order an Accurate.
it's also going to make what you want how you want it with no grief.
your ordering what your rifle want's, if the barrel is good enough to shoot jacketed reasonably well it's good enough to shoot a proper cast bullet just as good.

 

[Bret4207]

Don't get hung up on Bhn, get hung up on fit. Also, consider you had no issue paying $30 lbs for powder that you're going to burn up and never have use of again. A decent mould of the right size and shape for what you want will last a life time. Might make the price seem a lot more reasonable.

Don't even bother trying to lap a decent iron mould out in the home shop setting. You'll have 2 different sizes and they won't be round. But, no, lapping it out .003 won't give you a 15 gr increase in weight.

 

[fiver]

I'm trying to remember if I use Lyman or Rcbs 2 cavity handles on the saeco molds I have.
I'm pretty sure it's rcbs handles.
I don't think I have a set of Saeco's [no, I don't] and I for sure didn't have a set of LEE anything handles when I got my first saeco mold.

 

[BHuij]

Looks like Accurate mold is leading the popular vote over used Saeco. Makes sense; buy once cry once.

So this brings me to another few questions I have about sizing. I think I know the answers, but would like some input.

1) Neck sizing vs full-length. The brass I have will be fired from exactly one rifle for their lifetime, so no real need to full-length size, right?

2) Best tools for neck sizing. I am using the Lee pacesetter dies so far. The full-length sizer came with a stem for .308 and one for .311, neither of which is really big enough. I have been using the larger one of course. But then I was using the Lee Universal Neck Expander die, which is not well-named. The plugs in it are cone shaped, so it's not really expanding the neck so much as belling it. I was belling it the minimum amount I could get away with and still seat my bullets which are roughly .312 or .313 after powder coating They are heat-treated and upwards of 20 BHN, so I doubt they're swaging down upon seating. Since I'm going to be putting bullets in these necks that are about .317, and want to aim for either .001 or .002" of neck tension, I need an expander plug that will leave me a .315" neck.

Will this do the trick? http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?products_id=1513

I have two concerns, the first being that I'll actually want one larger than .315". NOE's recommendation on that page is to order one 0.001" above bullet diameter, presumably to account for brass springback. Will they make me one that is .318" in the smaller diameter? And if my final neck sized internal diameter is .315-.316, do I still need to bell the case mouth or get a plug with the "stepped" double diameter like this one? Or am I better off avoiding the two-diameter neck?

3) Lastly, neck annealing. My brass has been fired about 7-8 times probably, generally with mild loads of magnum pistol powder like 4227 and 2400. I have trimmed it to length once, around the 5th time shooting. Primer pockets do not seem to be getting loose. However, the Lee sizer die I've been using squeezes the neck down to an outer diameter based on seating a .308 projectile (much smaller than necessary), and then the expander stem pulls them back out to .311" inner diameter. Doing this 8 times has likely work hardened my brass. Is there a decent way to anneal case necks that will give me good consistency for all my brass, and also not require special equipment? I think that might help my brass last longer, especially since I'm getting ready to stretch these necks out to wider than they've ever been, by several thousandths.

 

[Ian]

especially since I'm getting ready to stretch these necks out to wider than they've ever been, by several thousandths

Except when they're fired, which is probably another few thousandths. Have you ever mic'ed the neck ID of brass fired with full power loads? Take your Lee expander and open the mouth just a little to ensure all vestiges of crimp and burrs are out of the way, then check with ball gauges or inside calipers. Check your inside caliper measurement against a micrometer to verify.

You could modify a Lee collet neck-sizing die. Get an 8mm Mauser die, it's for .323 bullets but likely will be undersized enough to work after you grind about .134" off the sleeve off to work with the Russian round. If not, you can sand the slits in the collet a little and coax it a little tighter. Probably will need to turn the mandrel down just a little with sandpaper and a drill to put the neck ID at .315-16".

Other than that, you're spending money on benchrest dies or modding what you got. You could hone out the neck of the sizing die you have and partial-size the brass just to "kiss" the tapered body and not really push it back any. That won't size the whole neck to the shoulder, but that doesn't matter, and leaving the very base of the neck "as fired" will help align the bullet in the throat. If you really need one, you can rob an expander from a .32-cal Lee sizer die and sand it down a little just to assist uniformity. Then bell in the universal "bellmouthing" die.

 

[Spindrift]

Concerning the NOE expander plugs, my 2 cents
1) brass length must be uniform. There is a small margin between a nice flare, and ruined neck tension since the transition between the flaring portion and the neck expanding portion is abrubt
2) They are listed by two numbers of dimension; the smaller number corresponds to the neck expansion, the larger number to the flaring portion
3) I have had best luck with expander diameter 0,002in less than sizing diameter. 0,003 also works. 0,001 tends to give to little neck tension
4) the best option for you in the standard catalogue would be .318x.314. It would probably work nicely

If you get a .317 mold, maybe you can seat the bullet in unsized cases and retain the bullet with a crimp? (This works reasonably well in my .30c06 with .3105 bullets that are tumble lubed). It would certainly reduce stress on the brass.
I wish you the best of luck with your project. Interesting thread!

 

[BHuij]

Except when they're fired, which is probably another few thousandths.

Good point.

So there's no way to just back out the full-length sizing die I have so it's not engaging much past the bottleneck, lap out the part that squishes the neck so it's not going down quite so far, and then use a NOE plug in .318x.314 or thereabouts in a second die to get the neck where I actually want it prior to charging and seating? I already have the Lee Universal Neck Expander die. If this option is workable, then it's an hour or so spent lapping, and $7 for a new expander plug.

 

[Ian]

Yes, you can hone the neck of the die so it only sizes enough to hold your .31whatever-sized bullet with the tension you want and back the die out 1/2 to 3/4 turn or so and partial-size so it doesn't over-size the case body and make it sloppy in the chamber. The nice taper on on the case body of the Russian means you can contol case to chamber fit very closely, or not touch the case body at all if you choose and still size most of the neck.

 

[BHuij]

Okay, I thought as much, but I’ve never done anything but full length sizing so I wasn’t totally sure. I’m guessing the amount to which I lap out the part of the die which compressed the neck down isn’t critical as long as I don’t overdo it? That really only makes it so the necks aren’t getting worked quite as much, maybe making brass life a bit longer, right?

The NOE plug is one way to get the inner diameter of the neck where I want it, but is there anyone who makes a custom stem for the Lee sizing die that would do the same job? It kind of seems like doing a two-step inner diameter neck causes more problems than it solves. Besides that, if I can do all the sizing I need in one stroke, all the better. Belling the neck a bit to hold the bullet is easily doable if necessary.

 

[Ian]

I covered all that about the stem.

The amount you enlarge the neck of the sizing die IS rather critical. Test your hone job frequently by sizing cases and measuring inside cae neck diameter frequently.