Black Powder Cartridge Reloading

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
Black Powder Cartridge Reloading/BPCR

Maybe an odd place to ask, but... I tend to get the best info from this group, and trust you all emphatically.

I would like to try some BPCR - 43 Spanish/45-70/maybe 38-55 and 44-40, maybe even 45 Colt. BP is very new to me in general. And I am VERY uncomfortable with having an air gap b/n powder and bullet base, especially in a cartridge. I do understand that it is mostly about bullet seating depth on top of the BP, but just 'new to me' concept.

Would appreciate any tips/tricks/how-to video references, etc. TIA
 

300BLK

Well-Known Member
You'll get lots of different responses, and its not to say that any one is correct or not. Its what works for you with your rifle, powder, bullets, lube, etc. I doubt that you'll ever have anyone advocate air space in the cartridges, so that means 100% or more load density. Real blackpowder is easily ignited, so a mild primer is plenty, and was usually my preference. I did a primer test once upon a time and found that just changing the primer in a particular 45-70 load had groups vary from ~MOA to almost 4 MOA at 385 meters. WW LRM were the worst, RP 2-1/2 large pistol primers were the best, with F210s, WLR and F215s between. In a couple of 38-55s, there was a distinct preference to WLR over the others.

I recall that the competitive shooters all used a 24" or longer drop tube to settle the powder in the cases whether it was just dumped or trickled, but the object was uniformity. Powder charges were measure thrown and not weighed, but again, uniformity was the goal, so a baffle in the measure helped, and keeping powder in a funnel in the top of the measure enhanced that. Powder was then compressed, with or without an over-powder wad using a compression die and not a bullet. I deal powder compression varied from brand/granulation/bullet weight, etc.

Most shooters used grooved, lubed bullets of groove diameter or larger. There were some who chose to use paper patched at bore size! Neck tension is another variable. I knew guys who shot "slip fit", meaning the bullet was literally a drop fit into the case. I suppose that is OK provided that you carefully handle your ammunition so the bullets don't fall out, and that the bullet is snug against the throat/rifling when chambered. I preferred just enough neck tension to make cartridges, so backed the FL sizer die out to partial size. An expander plug put just enough flare on the case to allow the bullet to seat easily, and I seated bullets between thumb and forefinger <snap> fit. I reasoned that using a die to seat might damage a soft bullet. I didn't remove the flare from the case, so the mouth of the case was snug in the chamber and kept the round centered. These were "match cartridges" and not hunting rounds. For rougher use, use more neck tension and remove most of the flare.

Most guys shot soft bullets, 20-1 to 40-1, but some shot whatever they had. Whatever your mix is, be consistent. Even hard alloy will obturate with BP as witnessed by 457125s found on a bank inthe spring. The full length of the nose was fully engraved, but the bullet was too hard to scratch with a thumbnail. Obviously it was too hard, engraved too much to be loaded without mechanical assistance, so "bumped up" upon ignition.

Bullet seating depth directly affects powder volume. The bullet needs to be seated deeply enough so as to chamber without an external device to cam the cartridge in. What works for a singleshot rifle may be too tight to chamber in a revolver or levergun.

Overpowder wads varied from poly sheet to card stock. Vegetable fiber based gasket material was used by some competitors....whatever works for you. Original cartridges varied from none to grease cookies sandwiched between card wads.

Powder choice is a whole 'nuther can o' worms. fffg is generally used in cartridges shared rifle/handgun, and ffg in most larger calibers. My 38-55s worked well with fffg, 45-70s with ffg, and 43 Mauser with fg. An original 43 Mauser cartridge from the 1880s contained a PP bullet, grease cookie between 2 card wads, and what appeared to be fg.

Choice of bullet lube for grooved bullets is another argument waiting to happen. SPG will melt if you leave your ammo in the sun. It will "bleed oil" if you put it in a lubrisizer. Generally, a beeswax base combined with vegetable oils or animal fats work well. You can wipe the bore between shots with a singleshot, but that is a no-go with a levergun or revolver.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I can't add much to what 300BLK wrote. That's good info.

In the little bit of work I've done with black powder cartridges I found that the correct volume trumps weight every time. I will select a powder, fill the case and account for the desired amount of compression. Then weigh that powder charge, just to make sure I didn't do something stupid. After I was happy with the amount, I put the scale away.

For the larger casings, I typically found 2F to be the most useful and it doesn't matter which brand if you do not switch brands. If you switch powders, you must start all over again. 3F works better for smaller casings.

Bullets were generally made with a soft alloy.

Like all reloading, consistency is the name of the game.
 

glassparman

"OK, OK, I'm going as fast as I don't want to go!"
To start off, I load black powder in .45-70 for my Trapdoor, 8mm Kropatschek in same name rifle and .45 Colt in an Uberti Single Action Army.

There are many sites out there for BPCR/Black Powder Cartridge Rifles. There are competitions as well. You should be able to find additional info on other sites dedicated to such activities . . . but we are glad you started here!

Some will say air gap is OK but I'm sure they have not pushed the limit on how much gap. BP is considered an explosive so it reacts different than Nitrocellulose.

Second, you cannot overload BP cartridges. The pressure is extremely low compared to smokeless. When they wanted more range and power behind the old .45-70, they just made longer cartridges like the .45-90, .45-120 and so on.

That all being said, there is no reason to leave an air gap. Use a drop tube of 48" or as tall as you can reach and fill the case to slight compression. I have tested this and the granules really do align better to fill the case if you use a drop tube. Also, using old balloon head cases gives more space for powder. They stopped using balloon head cases because modern smokeless caused too much pressure on a thin head case. Also, when looking up recipes, they are measured by volume. BP is also sensitive to static. DON'T use plastic dippers and such. All BP load tools are usually brass.

If you really want to leave an air gap, just cut pieces of a cotton ball to fill the gap. The idea is to not allow the powder to move around or give it room to expand in the case.

I have a huge case of Kropatschek blanks that were arsenal loaded for training. They have BP and a wad of cotton below the hollow wood projectile. I can only guess they didn't fill the case because there was no pressure behind a disintegrating hollow wood projectile and they wanted to make these on the cheap. I have torn these down to reuse the brass. (Yeah, .254 Berdan primers are hard to find!)

Just my .2¢ worth but I recommend loading with ever so slight compression. Adjust your drop load accordingly.

I do love shooting BP rifles! It is truly a different experience.

My Kropatschek reloads showing before and after:

3117.jpeg
 

glassparman

"OK, OK, I'm going as fast as I don't want to go!"
Also, my drop tube, funnel on top of tube, volume measure device and all my tools that come in contact with the BP are all brass and I have an electronics work mat that is grounded. You can never be too safe!

Sorry, I just have to show off more before and after pictures of "re-manufactured" Kropatschek BP rounds with the original CN projos.

469.jpeg
 
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Missionary

Well-Known Member
Good morning
No air gap with BP. You can add wads with straight cases to take up space.
Also you can use F as it produces less velocity. 2F and 3F produces more fps and more pressure.

The idea with BP in old rifles was to load soft cast bore size (not groove size) as the soft lead was going to "bump up" when the BP exploded.
Modern rifles some shooters are using harder cast but to groove size. I have tried both routes. You have to experiment with each barrel to find out what is best in that particular barrel. Some barrels like an in-between size. Some barrels want 40-1 and others harder.
But in the end you will find a very accurate load.
In an old BP barrel I start with 40-1, bore size, 2F with a cereal box wad under the bullet. Usually makes a decent load.
Bottle neck cartridges are a new beast. We shoot 43 Spanish and that was a new adventure.
 

Michael

Active Member. Uh/What
Air space in a BP cartridge.

Never! See above ^ ^ ^ what Missionary said.

Have some air space....... either add more powder or card/felt/poly wads to the point of compression, could be just enough to firm up the power column, or upwards to 0.250" or more depending on what shoots best in your firearm. Different powders, fg, ffg, fffg, Swiss, Schutzen, Old E, Goex, will like differing amounts of compression, also will vary from cartridge to cartridge, and bullet weight to bullet weight.

There is no magic recipe, start with a load that gives some compression and proceed from there.
Don't try to compress the powder when seating the bullet. You might be ok if only compressing 0.050, but lead will deform under too much pressure.

Don't lube bullets using the same stuff that used for smokeless powder. Use lube designed for BP. You can buy, mix your own using several recipes that are out there, or if adventurous- mix up your own concoction.

Pick up LPGs Black Powder Loading Primer and/or Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West. Paul Mathews has written several good books on loading BPCRs.

Lastly, keep good notes, and did I mention no air space, save yourself that variable and even more so any potential problems, it simply is not worth the hassle nor the risk.

Enjoy the journey!
 

StrawHat

Well-Known Member
These remarks are not posted to start an argument, merely to give options.

Black powder is sold in plastic bottles so, it can not be the big bad monster some make it out to be. Drop tubes work but so does a slow pour from 8-12” above your funnel.

Serious competitors weigh their charges.

Lubes can be simple or complicated. You can buy them or make them. It depends how involved you want to become in the sport.

I have been accused of “slop bucket loading techniques”. My method was after I determined a successful charge, or guessed at one, I cut a measure that held that much powder. I would pour my powder into a plastic container, scoop out the predetermined amount (with practice you can get within a fraction of a grain if you are consistent) and do a slow poor from about a foot above a very wide funnel into my empty cartridge case. I would then seat, whatever bullet I was using that day and rely on neck alone to hold it.

Not only was this good enough for hunting, but it also put me at the top in several small local competitions.

And yes, keep copious notes of what you’ve done how you loaded what the weather conditions are. It all matters.

Just food for thought.

Kevin