Casting 45/70 535 grain
- Thread starter Stoddy
- Start date
Michael
Active Member. Uh/What
20:1 is good, 30:1 was what was recommended to me. You will likely find recommendations ranging from 40:1 all the way to 16:1. With tin being close to $30/lbs, that may or may not make any difference. Powder selection and compression is equally if not more important. I would recommend checking out the Shiloh Rifle forum for additional input if you are going to be using black powder. All of my experience with the 45-70 has been with either 1.5Fg or 2F. What bullet are you using. Have fun!
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RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I only shoot smokeless powder in my 45/70's due the non-availability of black to purchase where I live and the expense of having it shipped to me. With smokeless, it doesn't make much difference if the bullet fits the throat, but softer is usually a little better than harder. FWIW
Matt
Active Member
I agree softer especially with black powder, but it’s really same with smokeless. Tin for mold fill out and ductility is more important than hardness in my experience. Lots of soft lube with black powder. I use Crisco straight for muzzle loaders and 50/50 beeswax/Crisco for cartridges loaded with black powder because it’s easier to handle.
Black powder cartridge loading is fun and there are different techniques lo make it work. I spent a year or more working to get a Trapdoor carbine to work well, I got what I thought was decent accuracy, 6-8 inch groups at 100 yards and little fouling. 1F Goex compressed to the point it wouldn’t deform the 40:1 Ideal 457122 HP was the ticket. Have fun.
Black powder cartridge loading is fun and there are different techniques lo make it work. I spent a year or more working to get a Trapdoor carbine to work well, I got what I thought was decent accuracy, 6-8 inch groups at 100 yards and little fouling. 1F Goex compressed to the point it wouldn’t deform the 40:1 Ideal 457122 HP was the ticket. Have fun.
RBHarter
West Central AR
The Holy Black is slightly out of my end of the pool .
Based on exploritive study the 1:20 and 1:40 alloy recommended is on the money .
FFg will want up to 1/4" of compression with FFFg doing best work around 1/8" . It takes a compression die to do it without mangling the bullet nose .
I've found in my extremely limited experience that holding to around 25-28kpsi smokeless data and whatever you're using for your 45 Colts or ACP is about right for alloy . It gave me my best results .......but that was an 1895 G tooled to a 200 yd max shot and more likely inside 100 for wrecking whatever walks the deep woods of Arkansas or my backyard .....
I want to eventually shoot some BP in it so that I can say I have .
Based on exploritive study the 1:20 and 1:40 alloy recommended is on the money .
FFg will want up to 1/4" of compression with FFFg doing best work around 1/8" . It takes a compression die to do it without mangling the bullet nose .
I've found in my extremely limited experience that holding to around 25-28kpsi smokeless data and whatever you're using for your 45 Colts or ACP is about right for alloy . It gave me my best results .......but that was an 1895 G tooled to a 200 yd max shot and more likely inside 100 for wrecking whatever walks the deep woods of Arkansas or my backyard .....
I want to eventually shoot some BP in it so that I can say I have .
I have ordered a Steve Brooks mould, 535 grain round nose. I could not get a Lyman mould in the UK, very where was out of stock, also struggled in the US, if they were in stock would not mail to the UK
Michael
Active Member. Uh/What
Hi, Looks like Swiss No 4 is the same as 1.5 Fg. Guess it depends on which side of the pond we're on. Had me worried for a moment, seen the No4 and FFFFg came to mind. 1.5Fg is good. I have not used Swiss myself, but a number of people that I know do use it. Frequently it does not require much if any compression, just make sure your case is completely full. In regards to you bullet, Steve molds are among the best, and a big jump up in quality over a Lyman, you did good. There is no magic load, your rifle will tell you what it likes, just have to put the time in. I don't know how much experience you have in loading BPCRs, happy to share what has worked for me. You are looking good so far.
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Hi Michael, thanks for that. The last time I reloaded was 30 years ago when I had a 9mm, so I have a little knowledge. So 45/70 is a whole new ball game for me, I’m getting back into shooting after a long break. I don’t want a little knowledge to be a dangerous thing as they say in the UK lol. My experience of BP was a navy colt & a Kentucky flintlock both in .44, I cast soft round ball for them
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Hand dip that bullet. I used a Jones in that size with great success.
Compression die and 30 inch drop tube. I used Goex Cartridge. But Swiss is a superior powder.
No crimp. Set the bullet on the compressed powder. And when you close the action, powder should crunch a tad so bullet engraves.
Always used 20:1 but shot with a lot of guys who used 25:1 with similar success. 50/50 Crisco beeswax worked very well for my buddy who won senior class at Raton. I always used Paul Matthew's recipe and it always worked great, regardless of ambient temp.
Sold my Shiloh last year. Recoil with that big bullet was not fun anymore.
Compression die and 30 inch drop tube. I used Goex Cartridge. But Swiss is a superior powder.
No crimp. Set the bullet on the compressed powder. And when you close the action, powder should crunch a tad so bullet engraves.
Always used 20:1 but shot with a lot of guys who used 25:1 with similar success. 50/50 Crisco beeswax worked very well for my buddy who won senior class at Raton. I always used Paul Matthew's recipe and it always worked great, regardless of ambient temp.
Sold my Shiloh last year. Recoil with that big bullet was not fun anymore.
fiver
Well-Known Member
i agree on using a ladle and emptying it over the mold each pour.
20-1 is about as far down as i'd go and 30 or 25-1 would be a good place to start.
lucky you in not being able to find a lyman and being forced to buy an actual mold meant for black powder long range shooting.
20-1 is about as far down as i'd go and 30 or 25-1 would be a good place to start.
lucky you in not being able to find a lyman and being forced to buy an actual mold meant for black powder long range shooting.
Michael
Active Member. Uh/What
I have good luck with my 457132, and my Saeco 745, but I ordered a 3 cavity NOE clone with top punch right before Christmas, but anyway as mentioned before, cannot go wrong with a Brooks.
Use the alloy you feel comfortable with. This how I cast and load. This may seem like a lot to absorb, once you do it a few times, it's easy.
1. Ladle pour. With the mold plate vertical, put the ladle spout right up against the spru hole, then as unit rotate the mold and ladle 90 degrees over the coarse of 2-3 seconds as lead flows into the mold. Leave in place for 6-8 seconds while mold gets completely filled. Let the ladle over the mold leaving a good size puddle. Do everything the same way for the same count every time. As for alloy, I use 30:1 at 750F.
2. Once the sprue flashes over and has frozen up, with a gloved hand apply slight downward pressure on the spure plate and cut the sprue. It will cut easily and you should just have smear across the base of the bullet. If the sprue tears, wait a few seconds longer. You will find the correct timing.
3. Lube: DGL, SPG, probably depends on what you can get. There are a number of good homemade ones as well. Be sure to wipe off the base of the boot good, even if you don't see any lube- more on this later. Be sure the grooves are completely filled. the lube serves two purposes, lube the bullet and keep the powder fouling soft.
4. I size .459 in a RCBS luba-matic.
5. Primers: I use, or use to anyway, Remington 2-1/2 large pistol. Any large rifle or pistol primer will work.
6. For the last several years I have used Goex Old Enisford 1.5Fg. Looks like will be changing. Cannot go wrong with Swiss.
7. Powder- how much... good question. This part you will only need to do once. First determine your overall length of the loaded round. I obtained mine by figuring out how far I need to seat the bullet out, so that when the round is chambered with thumb pressure only, about 1/2 the thickness of the case rim sticks out from the breech. As the block is raised, the bullet will get pushed slightly into the lands and all snuggled up between the lands in front and powder charge in the back. Once you have your COL, determine how much powder it will take to fill the case to the base of the bullet, There will be some trial and error here, just make sure there is no air space once the bullet is seated and chambered. The bullet does not need to be lubed for this process. More on this in step 10. Write down how what the charge weight it is, and the COL.
8. I do not size my cases, some folks do, some partially. More on this later in step 10.
9. Prime the case and slightly flare the case mouth.
6. Dump with 30 inch or something close, drop tube. But just don't dump and go, pour the powder in slowly over 2-3 seconds so it settles evenly.
7. Put a over powder wad (OPW) on top of the powder. I use a 0.060 inch veggie fiber wad from John Walters. Some use 0.030, some use poly, some use none at all.
8. Put a newspaper wad on top of the OPW, this will help prevent the OPW from sticking to the base of the bullet. I use 2. I cut my own with a wad punch. You can also cut your own OPWs from milk or juice cartons, tablet backing, be consistent with what is used.
9. Compress the powder using a compression plug. Being that I use Goex and compress around 0.200 inches, trying to do it with the bullet is not a good idea, it gets deformed, trust me, I learned the hard way. With Swiss, you may be able to get by without one, just depends on what the rifle likes in terms of how much powder. The BPCR shooters/competitors that I know usually compress Swiss about starting at about 0.050 inches, which would be about like Snakeoil described.
10. Slip the bullet into the case sitting securely on top of the wad(s). This is where unsized cases are nice when determining how powder is needed to fill the case. The bullet can be slipped in and out the case as the amount powder needed, in step 7 is figured out. In step 7 you could omit the wads as the powder charge is determined as described above. Then whatever the thickness of the OPW being used will be your initial level of compression.
11. Taper crimp just enough to remove the flare from the case mouth, and if you want, taper crimp just enough to keep the bullet from sliding out on it's own when the loaded round is turned upside down.
Granted I don't know what your goal is in terms of accuracy (1, 2, 3 MOA) you are wanting to achieve or what you are planning on shooting. Some folks just like the boom push cough cough and 4 MOA is perfectly fine in their eyes, and that's ok.
If you are wanting to try different loads to get bring the group size down, only change 1 thing/variable at a time. Most folks will start with adjusting the compression/powder charge first. Leave everything the same and just add or decrease how much powder is used, which in turn will change how much it is compressed. It is very important to have to some compression to ensure there is no air space in the case. Black powder and smokeless are completely different in this regard. Back to adjusting the powder charge, add more powder in 1 to 2 grain increments and see how it shoots. When trying to find a load I will load up 12 rounds, of a given charge, 2 for foulers, and 10, for 2- 5 shot groups. I might take 4 different loads to the range with me. It is good ideas to mark each weight on the case. Dump them out on the bench or worse the ground by accident and they are not marked... they all look the same. Depending on what sights are on your rifle will influence the distance you shot at. I have a MVA buffalo soule rear and a MVA spirit level front with a round insert. I will shoot using bench sticks using a 200 yard target placement. If you are using barrel sights, 50-100 yards/meters will likely be better. Use a target that you can get good definition with and use a large clean backing, no other bullet holes on it. A target stuck in the middle of target backing covered in bullet holes will be as waste of component and time.
Black powder leaves fouling in the barrel, between shots the shooter needs to either use a blow tube soften or run a patch down the barrel.
The above is what has worked for me and is a collection of methods gleaned from others. You ask 10 other people and get 10 different ways of putting all together. Is it the best way, probably not. You will find what works for you, that is part of the fun. Black powder cartridge rifles are a different breed than smokeless and hence the care and feeding is different. One last item, or two, clean your rifle when done, not the next day unless you want to ruin your barrel. And you will need to clean your cases. There is a lot of info out there in books and online on these topics. Wolfe Publishing Company offer a number of good ones.
Not that it matters but my wife and I have shot BPCR silhouette and gong matches since about '99. Shooting well is good, but having fun is what is the most important.
Hope this helps and God bless.
Michael
Use the alloy you feel comfortable with. This how I cast and load. This may seem like a lot to absorb, once you do it a few times, it's easy.
1. Ladle pour. With the mold plate vertical, put the ladle spout right up against the spru hole, then as unit rotate the mold and ladle 90 degrees over the coarse of 2-3 seconds as lead flows into the mold. Leave in place for 6-8 seconds while mold gets completely filled. Let the ladle over the mold leaving a good size puddle. Do everything the same way for the same count every time. As for alloy, I use 30:1 at 750F.
2. Once the sprue flashes over and has frozen up, with a gloved hand apply slight downward pressure on the spure plate and cut the sprue. It will cut easily and you should just have smear across the base of the bullet. If the sprue tears, wait a few seconds longer. You will find the correct timing.
3. Lube: DGL, SPG, probably depends on what you can get. There are a number of good homemade ones as well. Be sure to wipe off the base of the boot good, even if you don't see any lube- more on this later. Be sure the grooves are completely filled. the lube serves two purposes, lube the bullet and keep the powder fouling soft.
4. I size .459 in a RCBS luba-matic.
5. Primers: I use, or use to anyway, Remington 2-1/2 large pistol. Any large rifle or pistol primer will work.
6. For the last several years I have used Goex Old Enisford 1.5Fg. Looks like will be changing. Cannot go wrong with Swiss.
7. Powder- how much... good question. This part you will only need to do once. First determine your overall length of the loaded round. I obtained mine by figuring out how far I need to seat the bullet out, so that when the round is chambered with thumb pressure only, about 1/2 the thickness of the case rim sticks out from the breech. As the block is raised, the bullet will get pushed slightly into the lands and all snuggled up between the lands in front and powder charge in the back. Once you have your COL, determine how much powder it will take to fill the case to the base of the bullet, There will be some trial and error here, just make sure there is no air space once the bullet is seated and chambered. The bullet does not need to be lubed for this process. More on this in step 10. Write down how what the charge weight it is, and the COL.
8. I do not size my cases, some folks do, some partially. More on this later in step 10.
9. Prime the case and slightly flare the case mouth.
6. Dump with 30 inch or something close, drop tube. But just don't dump and go, pour the powder in slowly over 2-3 seconds so it settles evenly.
7. Put a over powder wad (OPW) on top of the powder. I use a 0.060 inch veggie fiber wad from John Walters. Some use 0.030, some use poly, some use none at all.
8. Put a newspaper wad on top of the OPW, this will help prevent the OPW from sticking to the base of the bullet. I use 2. I cut my own with a wad punch. You can also cut your own OPWs from milk or juice cartons, tablet backing, be consistent with what is used.
9. Compress the powder using a compression plug. Being that I use Goex and compress around 0.200 inches, trying to do it with the bullet is not a good idea, it gets deformed, trust me, I learned the hard way. With Swiss, you may be able to get by without one, just depends on what the rifle likes in terms of how much powder. The BPCR shooters/competitors that I know usually compress Swiss about starting at about 0.050 inches, which would be about like Snakeoil described.
10. Slip the bullet into the case sitting securely on top of the wad(s). This is where unsized cases are nice when determining how powder is needed to fill the case. The bullet can be slipped in and out the case as the amount powder needed, in step 7 is figured out. In step 7 you could omit the wads as the powder charge is determined as described above. Then whatever the thickness of the OPW being used will be your initial level of compression.
11. Taper crimp just enough to remove the flare from the case mouth, and if you want, taper crimp just enough to keep the bullet from sliding out on it's own when the loaded round is turned upside down.
Granted I don't know what your goal is in terms of accuracy (1, 2, 3 MOA) you are wanting to achieve or what you are planning on shooting. Some folks just like the boom push cough cough and 4 MOA is perfectly fine in their eyes, and that's ok.
If you are wanting to try different loads to get bring the group size down, only change 1 thing/variable at a time. Most folks will start with adjusting the compression/powder charge first. Leave everything the same and just add or decrease how much powder is used, which in turn will change how much it is compressed. It is very important to have to some compression to ensure there is no air space in the case. Black powder and smokeless are completely different in this regard. Back to adjusting the powder charge, add more powder in 1 to 2 grain increments and see how it shoots. When trying to find a load I will load up 12 rounds, of a given charge, 2 for foulers, and 10, for 2- 5 shot groups. I might take 4 different loads to the range with me. It is good ideas to mark each weight on the case. Dump them out on the bench or worse the ground by accident and they are not marked... they all look the same. Depending on what sights are on your rifle will influence the distance you shot at. I have a MVA buffalo soule rear and a MVA spirit level front with a round insert. I will shoot using bench sticks using a 200 yard target placement. If you are using barrel sights, 50-100 yards/meters will likely be better. Use a target that you can get good definition with and use a large clean backing, no other bullet holes on it. A target stuck in the middle of target backing covered in bullet holes will be as waste of component and time.
Black powder leaves fouling in the barrel, between shots the shooter needs to either use a blow tube soften or run a patch down the barrel.
The above is what has worked for me and is a collection of methods gleaned from others. You ask 10 other people and get 10 different ways of putting all together. Is it the best way, probably not. You will find what works for you, that is part of the fun. Black powder cartridge rifles are a different breed than smokeless and hence the care and feeding is different. One last item, or two, clean your rifle when done, not the next day unless you want to ruin your barrel. And you will need to clean your cases. There is a lot of info out there in books and online on these topics. Wolfe Publishing Company offer a number of good ones.
Not that it matters but my wife and I have shot BPCR silhouette and gong matches since about '99. Shooting well is good, but having fun is what is the most important.
Hope this helps and God bless.
Michael
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Hi Michael
That's a lot to take in but its very much appreciated. Its good to hear from someone whos been doing years, 45/70 is a new experience for me
Regards
John