Cold bore shot is high

Sendaro

Active Member
#21
INTHESHOP this is what happened this morning, I believe it's along the line of what you are conveying with your suggestion to BW. I will test this again.

This AM I attended and shot at Wilton NY in their steel silhouette match. This is a 10 shot match at each of the 4 ranges (200, 300, 400, and 500 yards). I was started at 400 yards on turkey targets. Some rain in the air and very damp cool conditions along with light fog. The bore of my Springfield 1903-A3 was cleaned the evening before and not seasoned. It took 4 fouling shots to settle down and start shooting. When It did I went to shooting for record. Scored 7 out of 10 hits. Next it was on to 500 yards and ram targets. There I scored 8 out of 10, and the rifle was acting well. After nearly half an hour intermission it was Chicken targets at 200 yards. That's where thing started to fall off. I only scored 6 out of 10. Going into the 200 yard part of the match there were 24 rounds through the bore. Shots that were fired with a good hold in a known condition were not behaving predictably. Before moving to the 300 yard pig targets I dry patched the bore with cotton cloth patches. As the second patch traveled the the length of bore the feel on the cleaning rod was smoother. When called to the firing line I fired 10 shots for record at the 300 yard pigs and scored 10 hits with several shots clustered in an area about 5 inches.

BTW the load that I shoot in the 03-A3 is a Lyman 311334 GC sized .310 50/50 lube over 17.5 grains of 2400 and a Federal 210 std primer. OAL at 3.350"

Thank you for your suggestion. I will continue to pursue in this direction of BW at about 20 rounds to see if it is repeatable.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
#22
If you have groups falling off after 15-20 rounds and a two-patch dry wipe fixes it for a little while, you mos definitely have a C.O.R.E. problem, likely a lube problem in particular. I don't care for NRA 50/50 lube for these very reasons.
 

Intheshop

Well-Known Member
#23
Sort of depends on your load's window..... which is why folks get all worked up about ladder testing.Which does work for JB's and high intensity loading.

When shooting lower velocity loads I'm feeling other problems,shooter/rig/bag related,mostly enter the picture. The increased barrel time is messing with the mo-jo....

Hunting,I live for cold bore,1st shot X's.... and need velocity as a crutch to beat wind and range estimating mistakes.... along with helping field position shooting miscues. Not particularly patient enough to be shooting long sloooooow strings of fire.Just ain't gonna happen.

Forget which rig or load testing recently but 20 rounds and the powder fouling was so heavy you could blow it out with an air hose. In my pea brain that wasn't a lube issue..... it was an intensity and/or powder choice problem. There wasn't enough lube on the,I think it was the new 223,to be a problem. Any less,is none. The fouling got less as velocity and intensity(harder jam,bullet fit,case neck tension) went up.... lube stayed the same.

But dang,that was still 20 rounds in a hunting rig? That's 3 trips in the field for me with zero checks thrown in for S&G's. The important part was the repeatability.

Ordered a Timney today to replace doodoo factory one on the R700,223(sold a pce of equipment Saturday, gave wife the money,said all I wanted was the trigger)....... when it gets here,I'll screw the heavy barrel on the ADL and try to work up a 10 shot,match load.
 

Sendaro

Active Member
#24
New Remington 700 triggers are pure crap! Remington is scared that they are going to be sued again. There is nothing wrong with the original 700 trigger that Mike Walker designed. The problem is operator error. Fill it full of oil and debris and it don't work well, try to set it for under a 1 and 1/2 lbs pull you may have a problem. Most all of my custom rifles are on 700 or 40X actions many have the original Remington 700 trigger made back in the 60's 70s and 80s. I think you are going to like your new trigger. I also like the trigger that Arnold Jewel makes for the 700. Wally Hart in Nescopeck PA makes a great trigger also for benchrest rifles.

We all are involved in a quest to get performance from our cast bullets. For me that quest is half the fun of it.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
#25
For 1600fps, you need a lube that melts right now and doesn't have a lot of extra stickifiers, slippery additives, metal soap goo, graphite, etc. NRA 50/50 is gummy and often leaves a thick past of calcium soap, tar, and powder residue in the bore at low pressure/velocity.

Try the old formula, or even beeswax/vaseline. If you don't shoot much in hot weather, Barry Darr's lube can be e cellent for accuracy and a clean bore. Lots if other, simple formulas will work as well.
 

Sendaro

Active Member
#26
Ian, Going to my shooting house in the morning. The bore in the 03-A3 is still fouled with 10 rounds since dry patching (BW). I plan to run a dry patch through it and test some loads at 200 and 200 yards. I'll see what happens.
 

RBHarter

Well-Known Member
#27
I'll vouch for Darrs . In the desert I added a little more paraffin and STP making it 18,14,3 tblsp over the original 16,16,2 . Paraffin oz , Vaseline oz , STP tblsp.
It runs out with the 458-340 about 2" short and in 24" fast twist 22 cal late Savage barrels.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
#29
you almost never 'run out' of lube.
you can blow it out of the groove and chase it down the barrel, or wipe it off your cases.

it can also stop flowing at some point in the barrel, if your actually seeing it smear then nothing, you need to prop it up with a little something wet and/or reduce something else.
 
#30
Ben, Thanks for getting back to me. I'll try to contact 35SHOOTER.

I got the suspicion that it is nearly unavoidable. I base this on my experience shooting rim fire benchrest. I'm not sure what other shooters call it but I call it a "SEASONED BORE". That is when starting with a cold clean barrel the bore has to become fouled with powder adn primer residue along with whatever wax or coating the manufacture coats the projectile with. Some times it take several shots to over 10 to get the rifle running true. If the barrel is allowed to cool the viscocity of the lube in the barrel becomes different than what it was a few minutes before while the shots being fired with less time between shots. That fouling in the bore needs to remain consistent or the shot to shot speed deviation becomes greater. That shows up at the target with inaccuracy.
I would have to say here that I'm looking for a lube that is less effected by the bore temperature . Am I looking for the holy grail of lube? Maybe.

Again your thoughts and suggestions are always welcomed.
It may be worth a try to shoot a couple of pc bullets at the end of each shooting session. No real testing yet but experience seems to show best accuracy occurs when I have done this. It seems to really slick up the barrel.
 

RBHarter

Well-Known Member
#31
RBHarter Please define "runs out" What are you saying that there is not enough lube?
The guideline , lead at the breach is sizing , lead at the muzzle is lube quality/quantity .
I struggled for a long time avoiding gas checks like some kind of a plague , eventually paper patching but fussing with quantity variation to avoid the purge , cold bore , and hot/cold issues . With the 458-340 I had sized it 454 for a Colts carbine and it ran dry about 14" . I have several other bullets including a RNFP @ 350 gr. so no big deal for bullets there . Full size it'll go 16.5" in the 18" Guide gun . I could probably file roll them or deepen/add a groove with my spiffy new to me cannalure tool but the paper pathed 453-350 Mt Molds fills the need .
 
#32
Yesterday at the range I test fire a bullet that's new to me. The mold is from NOE and of the usual high quality I have come to expect from NOE ( well done). The bullet is along the design of the 30 cal MX2 I'm told. NOE number is 311 197 FN GC. I cast then in what I believe is a number 2 alloy and sized then at .310.

Yesterdays test firing was interesting to say the least. As you may know my directive is to develop an accurate cast bullet load to shoot at distances out to 500 yards and beyond. Yesterday I test fired with the Springfield 03-A3 ( two groove fitted with 16X Unertl scope) and the afore mentioned bullet.. The bullet is designed along the lines of the MX2 ( cast lubed and GC applied it 205 grains.

A previous test firing showed potential accuracy with 2400 powder at 17.8 grains. So 50 cartridges were assembled in once fired cases. The cases were FL sized, tumbled clean, trimmed to length, and inspected. Federal 210 std primers were used.
I posted wind flags and fired several rounds at 200 yards fouling the barred that was super clean. Wind flags were then re positioned at 100 and 250yards. The one at 250 yards was extended to a height of 14 feet above the ground. My thought was at mid range the bullet would be somewhere in that area when shooting at 500 yards, A wind flag that is 6 feet off the ground would not be providing any valuable information as the bullet would be several feet above it when shooting at the 500 yard range.

This being the first time out with this bullet I had only elevation information for another bullet of nearly the same weight and powder charge pushing it. So elevation setting were established as the test firing progressed. At 200 yards the rifle seemed to settle down and shoot more accurate after 4 rounds were fired. I assume this is what it took to season the bore.

Moving on to 300 yards the first shots fell about 16" lower than predicted by the elevation setting I was using for a guide line so an elevation correction was made that put the shot on the money. A bowling pin at the 300 yard range was chosen as the target and hitting it becam no great feat. So it was on to 400 yards and the elevation setting for 300 was recorded and the additional amount added to the 300 yard elevation was applied to the previous 400 yard elevation requirement.

At this point there had been 15 rounds fired through a bore that was very clean. I now ran 2 dry cloth patches through the bore before resuming testing. When patch @1 was pushed down the bore I could feel a little drag for the first 5 or so inches in front of the chamber and then the remainder of the travel to the muzzle was somewhat smoother and uniform.

Shot #1 at 400 yards was on the money! The load was working fine and the 400 yard elevation setting established / recorded. I fired a few more rounds at he 400 yard distance and then moved to 500 Yards.

At 500 yards the elevation was only 1/2 MOA different than what I had recorded for the other load elevation requirements I had recorded. This load was shooting very good at 500. I chose bowling pin for there target and the first shot landed at 3 o'clock about a10" off the pin. Holding for the condition shot #2 was withing 2 " of the pin. Now knowing where to hold I shot the next shot at a clay bird by the pin. It was within less than an inch of hitting the bird and the next shot hit the bird breaking it.

Great! Seems like I've got a great load and bullet at this point. The testing stopped for about half an hour. When I resumed shooting I set the elevation for 200 yards and shot at the steel chicken target. The rifle was throwing shots all around it! WTH! I stopped shooting and pushed 2 dry patches through the bore and went back to shooting. The accuracy had returned. I was again hitting the chicken at 200 yards

Turning to the 300 yard pig target I fired 4 or five shots into a nice little group centered in the body. The rifle was shooting so well I told my shooting partner I was going to place a shot in the pigs head. My shot centered the pig in the head. HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY!

So what did I learn from the test. The bullet is a fine shooting one that works out to the tested range of 500 yards, and that dry patching the bore every 15 rounds helps maintain accuracy. Now the fly in the ointment is what lube will take care of the fouling problem that is becoming obvious so I don't have to dry patch and can continue firing accurately when the fouling cools.

Sendaro
 
#33
As mentioned by Ian; I would get rid of the calcium soap lube..... Lighter loads seem more affected by it for fouling. I was a person thinking it had merit for a good time but stay away from it now! I did add ester oil to the 50-50 type lubes early on with acceptable results as far as calcium fouling.... but would not recommend it for you. I don't know of an off the shelf lube I'd recommend....... but I'm a fussy old guy... I think if you're willing I'd try making the OLD NRA formula.... It's 1/3 each of Beeswax, Paraffin, and Vaseline. Just enough heat required to melt together total. This lube won't take a lot of speed; but it behaves quite well on cold starts and 'long runs' for me. You can make it a soap lube too; into 666-1 by adding Ivory soap. This is a very good lube and a winner below zero as well. High heat is required (450°-460°) so it requires CAUTION to make. There are detailed posts on how to do it on this forum. This would give you the advantage to warm up your loads if you wanted to with still good results. Several here have homemade lubes that will do better than 50-50 as well that don't need high heat to make.

Pete
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
#34
Sendaro, now you know one of the reasons why so many of us gave up on commercial lube and started blending our own. The sort of shooting you describe would be would be well served by the Beeswax/paraffin/Vaseline formula. There are many others which could work well, too, and you could easily be overwhelmed by a deluge of suggestions.

Something which has amused me for a number of years is the lube choices of many CBA competitors. LBT Blue is a common choice for medium-velocity rifle loads, but it is far too "heavy" of a lube for that and requires frequent cleaning such as what you are experiencing with the 50/50 lube. Most of my rifles only have the bores "cleaned" for storage, and one rifle in particular hasn't been near a cleaning rod in several years, still shoots great. With a good lube that's compatible with the load and powder you're using, it should take 10-20 rounds to "season" the bore well when starting from an extremely clean condition. After that, it should settle down and not require any cleaning for several thousand rounds, and only then due to deposits accumulating at the end of the chamber.

I would suggest making the OLD NRA formula a little differently than the recipe due to changes in modern Gulf wax and Vaseline. For the paraffin ingredient, buy some taper candles from the craft store, they have Vybar added and are a little tougher grade of paraffin. The Vaseline you can get today leaves a lot to be desired. It may require the addition of some heavy paraffin oil and a small amount of micro-crystalline wax to give the right flow qualities to the lube. You want your Vaseline to be buttery and smooth with a tendency to string like hot cheese and feather to infinity, so a few tweaks may be in order.
 
#35
Eutectic, thank you for your input. The OLD NRA formula sounds like something I'd like to try.

I'm getting a lot of suggestions, but I'm not a chemist so a lot of what I'm hearing is not anything I'm familiar with. I hope you can understand that things like 666-1, calcium soap, STP, Bay berry wax, Japan wax, ester oil, ATF, graphite, alox , ear wax , and much more are quite confusing to me! It sounds like I need a witches cauldron and eye of nute. Oh what have I got myself into.

Getting the impression that making lube is something I'm going to have to learn. Will the OLD NRA formula you mention work well with speeds that are in the 1500 to 1700 fps range?

Thanks for the information to all who have responded. Once I let my brain heal from learning proper casting techniques I'll have to learn to make lube also.
 
#36
Will the OLD NRA formula you mention work well with speeds that are in the 1500 to 1700 fps range?
I think it will even with modern Vaseline and Gulf wax. Make a little bit and try. Ian's suggestions will boost it's capabilities more with 666-1 (Ivory addition even more. Try it an see......... First couple inches out from chamber will tell you if you're pushing it too hard.

Pete
 
#38
but what the hell is 666-1?
The numbers are parts...... 6 parts Beeswax, 6 parts Paraffin, 6 parts Vaseline and 1 parts grated Ivory soap. I think most use tablespoons or similar. I weigh three equal parts of bw, para, and vase and keep Ivory at 5.5% of that mix. So long story short it is the old NRA formula 'toughened' up with an Ivory (sodium stearate) addition.

Pete
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
#40
It don't matter. I use the bars. Melt the Ivory, Vaseline, and paraffin together with the soap, hold at ~250°F until it completely quits foaming, then rapidly raise the heat and keep stirring constantly until the soap melts, this will be at 460°F and near the poof point of the waxes, so be careful. The instant it all melts, pull the pan off the heat and stir slowly while it gels into a very light grease. Add the beeswax block and stir it around, letting the residual heat melt it. By the time it gets to 220°F or so it should be like gravy and you can just let it cool the rest of the way. After it cools, it's ready to use.