Does anyone one on here make PID units

Jeff H

NW Ohio
I would like to have another one.

mattW is steering you in a good direction, and everyone else as well.

I built my first one almost twenty years ago, but that's what I did for a living and I had the parts and it was, "easy." As far as spreading our wings and exploring new stuff, I agree completely with the notion, but electrical stuff - ESPECIALLY ELECTRONIC stuff can be intimidating. The problem is that you do not get the sensory feedback - the "clunk" of an electro-mechanical relay, which won't last long in this application AND will drive you batsh... hearing it clunk,...clunk,clunk,...clunk,clunk, clunk, clunk,....clunk,.....

When someone says something's "easy," we are imposed upon with an element of guilt, and either dive in and try it, or shut up and forget about it. With electronics, an element of FAITH is REQUIRED that the unit will do what it's supposed to do. No sensory feedback. "Young people," (I generalize) think the have the workd by the a... because they "embrace technology" and use it to good effect, but in fact, the do NOT. Many (think "smart" phones) only learn the doggy tricks - which series of swipes and pokes cause what to happen. We can train dogs, chickens and pigs to do that!

MOST PEOPLE WHO "EMBRACE TECHNOLOGY" do NOT know SQUAT about TECHNOLOGY, PERIOD! Sorry. This is what I teach,and yet, I am often scolded for not "embracing technology" by some airhead who thinks he or she has the workd by the a.... because they finger that stupid phone all day.

But, we're "old guys," right? Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and wore it out and are now using it to wash the car. Or truck. We KNOW STUFF for REAL. So, here's the deal with the electronic "black box" we call a "PID controller:" if you can muster the ability (this is NOT easy) to NOT try to completely understand what is going on in there, you CAN be OK and still not be an airhead. This is complicated stuff they hire eggheads to figure out so the rest of the world can benefit from not REINVENTING THE WHEEL every time we star ta new project. Non else is SUPPOSED to be able to understand what goes on in there because it's all benign, boring, redundant and tedious MATH which would take any of us hours (even if we're really good) to figure out.

Esoteric language is the real problem here; what does "output" mean? What's an "input?" BUT, if you can roll back the experience and skepticism - the NEED to have proven to you that something is doing what it should, you can put one of these units together. It's not that you're not smart enough, it's more like you're TOO smart. Honest! We have to scale it back and let the little "black box" take over. It's almost like a trick on us old guys, but it's been around a long time. Everything about one of these units is pretty objective and REAL, except the black box - the controller and the SSR (solid state relay).

Let's get the SSR out of the way; it works just like a real relay - or like the solenoid in your starting system on a truck, tractor or a car - it "RELAYS" a signal - a smaller voltage,and allows a larger voltage (OK - CURRENT) to flow. It just doesn't make noise like a real relay. Easy enough. here's no coil, but you still attach two "small" wires for the "signal." Yo also attache the two "large" wires carrying the bigger current to power the pot. When you don't need heat, you "open" the circuit on the larger current. When you do need heat, you "close" the circuit on the large current - just like a real relay. You just can't hear it and it really doesn't "open" and "close" the circuit. So, who cares? it works like a relay, has the same number of wires and those wires do the same thing. Signal and power.

The controller - it needs power to run - two wires. It also has an "output" which is the "signal" to run the solid state RELAY. The wiring diagram for the controller will show you which two terminals are the "output," which would be what would run the coil on a regular relay. It will also have an "input," which is the temperature sensor that tell sit how hot the lead is. This sensor has two wires (if a thermocouple) or three (if an RTD). Go with the thermocouple, hereafter referred to as "TC." That's pretty much it for the basic wiring.

How the "black box" "auto-tunes" can be resolved after the basic wiring, but there will be instructions and it WILL save you a lot of superfluous education - which IS superfluopus because of the auto-tune feature.

I do NOT intend to come off as being an expert on this. I do NOT intend to put anyone's experience or education down WITH this. I am an old guy and I get old guys in class. Guess wh's the hardest on themselves and learn the most - the old guys.

I'm not on here often, but will help if you e-mail me. I should get an e-mail if I get a PM, but that doesn't seem to work that reliably.

Anyone here can make one of these, and if it's not cheaper than buying one, at least it's gratifying to do it yourself.

Then again, there's NO shame in just buying something you want if you don't WANT to have to figure it out. But, if you WANT to do it, there's NO reason you can't.

Sorry for the lecture. The "virus" has kept me out of the lab and classroom and it's starting bubble out.

Drive on guys, love the bunch of ya.

Jeff
 

mattw

Active Member
Jeff, from one "old guy" to another... great response! I have embraced tech my entire life, have worked in serious tech for the last 35 or so years and am really ready for a break from tech.
 

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Jeff thanks, I always over think projects I am not familiar with.
That was a great explanation. I know I can build one, it would simple be one more project on the extensive list.
 

Ian

Notorious member
You're awesome, Jeff. I'm sort of a Luddite because I only embrace technology to the degree that it serves me and makes my life easier, I refuse to be a slave to it. I also have a most FUNDAMENTAL distrust of anything that runs on blue smoke and ones and zeros. Including this computer. I have a few red dot optics, and one illuminated reticles scope, but have backup iron sights for the red dots and the IR scope still has a black crosshair when the battery is out. I wired my house starting with zero knowledge, borrowed some classroom books from an old master and learned it myself. I'm an ASE master with L1 advanced engine performance certification and eat computer module diagnostics and programming for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

But PIDs intimidate the HELL out of me.

Something about programming something just blanks my brain, major roadblock. I can barely make it through the sequence of button pushes and key cycles to reprogram a spare key fob for a customer without screwing it up. I just about gave up trying to program the Homelink buttons on my truck with my gate opener remotes. A day in purgatory for me was programming the aftermarket steering wheel button interface/translator module to the new head unit in my wife's Toyota so she could do phone calls, menu functions, and volume controls with the OEM steering wheel controls. I can't imagine figuring out how to make a phone call through my radio, heck it took me all weekend to figure out how to link my Android to my Pioneer with Bluetooth so I could set the equalizer, and I still get an eye twitch when I think about needing to do it again.

I use analog thermometers, thermocouple probes for my Fluke DVOM, and infrared heat "guns" together with the OEM thermostats on my electric casting furnaces and convection oven. I do have an older PID unit, have used it, don't like it, tore it down to put the borrowed SSR (most expensive part ten years ago) back in my spare air compressor control box, and am just fine without it. Some of the best bullet casters I know don't even use a thermometer. To each their own.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
You're awesome, Jeff. I'm sort of a Luddite because I only embrace technology to the degree that it serves me and makes my life easier, I refuse to be a slave to it.....................

Ian, THAT's EXACTLY what I keep trying to tell people! YOU are doing it RIGHT!

One thing I tell my students is that they CANNOT be dependent upon technology, because technology is dependent upon THEM. They HAVE to be able ot think for themselves and not rely on a stupid machine.

Yes, I said "STUPID MACHINE."

Here's the thing, all these things we "program" have extremely liited inteface capability, meaning that you buy a digital watch with 88 "features" or "functions", but you get all of FOUR buttons to tell it what you want to do. Ever use a "smart TV?" Holeee SH..... Talk about STUPID! You get to try to communicate with a very stupid but very complicated machine using the REMOTE, when we have keyboards, mice, touchscreens, etc. Yeah, really smart. Hey, it works - most of the time, and people today learn to live with the limitations imposed as if they were natural law - and then do NOT attempt to improve upon it? Computers got "bigger" faster and better as real people who jad the abilityto process thought DEMANDED MORE of them. Then, we started going backwards and limiting what they could do and people accept the limitations. Real computers have been dumbed-down to work like phones with their extreme limitations.

Temp controllers and key fobs are the same way - very limited interface. Phones seem to be designed so that within three attempts at combinations of pokes and swipes, you are rewarded with something. YAY!!! I did it! Did WHAT? Just SOMETHING.

So, there's the secret of temp controllers. They are limited in function and can process certain pieces of ligic and that's it. That's fine, because we buy them to do that one thing. Communicating with one is where it gets ugly - because of the limited interface. It's not YOU that's stupid, it's literally the MACHINE that's stupid - and by design.

One key point in navigating the very un-intuitive interface of a temp controller is to realize that it's limited - it's not that smart. There will be probably four different places to go to view or set something. They all do the same thing, the do it the same way - what differentiates different models and brands are number of features, and more importantly - how you navigate through the menus. Some are easier and some just flat out suck.

If you look at the path through one of these, it's like looking at a filing cabinet, you know a real four-drawer filing cabinet - with four drawers - REAL drawers. You figure out which drawer the parameter is in that you want to set or change and go to that drawer. Inside that drawer will be several settable parameters we'll call file folders. In each folder are several papers, each of which is one option you get to choose from. Find thr drawer, open the drawer. Find the folder, open the folder. Find the paper (parameter) you want to selact and select it. You may have to "save" your selection, or confirm it. Then close the folder, close the drawer and you should be back out of the menu - where you started. One way in and one way out. The displays are pathetic. You get what, four characters, and each of them is an eight-segment LED? "B" looks like "8" and "O" looks like "0," so they have to get creative with upper-case, lower case, etc.

Oh, no, it's not YOU, brother - it's the MACHINE. It's like once you figure out some guy you work with really IS an idiot. Once you've established that, you know how to talk to him. Same way with these controllers.

Now, I'm not bashing the technology at all here. Just making the point that you make - it is intended to be YOUR slave, not the other way 'round.

Here's a neat bit of trivia: Think ROBOT. There's some technology for ya!

ROBOT - what's that mean? It's rooted in the Slavic word for WORK - dang, I wish I had a Cyrillic keyboard sometimes, but sound it out like RA-BOTE, with the stress more on "BOTE." They are meant o be mechanical slaves to do stuff we don't want to do. Computers (like the "chip" or "processor" in that PID controller) do the same thing - they do a lot of math really fast. Most of us don't even like doing a little math slowly.

PID - don't get too wrapped up in that - use autotune. What it means is that the machine compares your process variable (PV), or actual temperature to your setpoint (SP) or what you SET the controller to reach. PID is math. the machine looks at the difference between PV and SP and if the lead is 45F and you want it to be 700F, it steps on the gas! As the difference between PV and SP gets smaller, the machine lets off the gas a little, little more, little more, starts to apply the brakes and EEEEEASES up to the stop sign without sliding into the intersection (overshoot). Oh, YOU could set the P, the I and the D manually, but I ain't going there. I use autotune. I make the machine do stuff I don't want to do.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Oh! I get accused of being a "Luddite" all the time by certain tech-dependent goofballs who live by their phone.

The difference? I could have another job by quitting time if I were fired over lunch - the tech-dependents who consider me a Luddite cannot.

Worse - I have had to make such people LOOK UP "LUDDITE!"

OK, I'll shut up.
 

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Ian, I am happy to hear somethings intimate you. Was convinced that you were a machine. Glad to know your human. Damn I don't feel quite as inadequate now.
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
Wow, this whole thread got mw to thinking, and yes it hurts. The Art and Science of Bullet Casting. I've decided I fall on the art side. I don't use a thermometer hardly ever and if I do it is the one from a print shop that used a linotype machine from 1902, I believe the thermometer was an accessory to that machine.
I have a LBT lead hardness tester, somewhere. I've used it, ah, maybe 10 times in 15 years. Usually when chatting on the phone with a buddy and he asks me, "How hard are your bullets?"
I have old wheel weights, new wheel weights, stained glass window cames from Innsbruck circa 1893, hospital lead, roof flashing, lead water pipe, solder bars for plumbing and auto body work, linotype, fishing sinkers, decoy anchor weights, and lots of "mystery" lead. I adhere to the Dean Grinnell philosophy, "If it's vaguely plumbous I'll make bullets out of it."
I have three older RCBS electric pots, a Lyman hot plate for pre heating moulds, and an old dutch oven I use for ladle casting. I have a manicurist's fan and I fiddle with the variables as I cast. I watch my sprues, I watch the stream, I watch the cooling rate, I watch the viscosity of the pour. I fiddle with the dials on the electrics and the gas valve on the gas burner. I adjust the stream on the RCBS pots so often as the level drops that I don't even tighten the locking nut so I can reach up with my bare fingers and adjust the flow rate. I adjust the mould rest height so I get the drop distance perfect for that particular day's casting. I have moulds that need a direct pour, some that want a swirl pour, some that need a lot of pressure, some less. I use the fan more or less amounts of time to keep my mould temp right.
All of the adjustments are done by, what, experience? I guess that's it and by golly that's the way I like it, and it gives me a sense of satisfaction to be rewarded for doing it right. This wonderful group of fellow casters have given me much. Knowledge, inspiration, challenges, techniques, and have shared their experiences.
Jeff H's post describing what a PID is and does made a lot of sense, and now I know what an SSR is, thank you.
I'll still be thinking about PID's and powder coating years from now probably and never quite get around to trying either one.
I gotta go load some ammo quick. A buddy is coming over and we are going to do a head to head test of Sierra Match Kings against cast bullets at 100 yards using every thing else the same. My friend is questioning his bench shooting abilities after shooting some postal match targets and I think he is just running up against the inherent limitations of cast bullets. All of his groups were 2" or smaller, and he is disappointed. I know he is a fine and serious shot, so this should be informative to both of us.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Wow, this whole thread got mw to thinking, and yes it hurts. The Art and Science of Bullet Casting. I've decided I fall on the art side. I don't use a thermometer hardly ever........................................

I agree with that. Keep it fun. After all that lecturing, I have to admit that I tell most people who want to get started to buy the minimum of equipment; pot, mould, ladle if you like and some wheel weights and start casting. Lots of handloaders and casters can't just walk by a rabbit hole and have the wrong impression that you need all the bells and whistles to get started. The most successful casters I've known in my life didn't just start casting with the minimum, they maintained that level or went back to it after a short fling with this do-dad or that one. You can buy all the "stuff" you want, but you're going to WORK for what counts most - the skill.

My whole point is that we are used to using our noodle - it's how we were brought up. A lot of "technology" is to make things so EASY (it does NOT smplify, it complicates) that even an idiot can do it. Therein lies the problem - if you're NOT an idiot, you're gonna struggle because you thnk you have to figure it out!

The only reason I have a PID controller on my pot is so I can eyeball the temp quickly. The parts were free. I salvaged outdated components - literally dug them out of a dumpster and too them home so I could fire up a controller in my WOOD shop while walking someone in China or Saudi Arabia through setting one up in the middle of the night over the phone. It was all sitting there and I tough "what the heck?" "I'll drop that TC into my lead pot so I can see the temp. I still actually do what I've always done, it's just that I can see the temp now.

NO! You do NOT NEED one. If you WANT one, go for it.

I personally fl by the seat of my pants for the most part. I use all kinds of mongrel "alloys" and work a batch for a bit to see what makes it cast well. I have a SAECO hardness tester, but rarely use that. I think my most important casting "gizmo" is my 1" micrometer.

Quick (yeah, I know) anecdote regarding the "embracing" of this "technology:" The single most common solution/answer I gave to new users who ranted and raged, swearing that I sent them a deffective controller and demanding that I get on a plane and hand-deliver a new one RIGHT NOW was administered the same way every time. I had to listen to the rant and wait for the person on the other end to take a breath so I could get a word in edge-wise. After about three minutes with no break, I'd exclaim "I GOT IT! I KNOW WHAT's WRONG!" That would shock them into silence long enought that I could add "you're not holding your mouth right!" THAT shut them up long enough for me to explain to use both thumbs to press two buttons simultaneously to get into the passcode display. Never failed - they would try to use a forefinger and middle finger on the same hand and I had to point out that those two fingers are different lengths and they were NOT pressing the buttons SIMULTANEOUSLY. They'd try two thumbs and suddenly were all cheery and friendly.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Ian, I am happy to hear somethings intimate you. Was convinced that you were a machine. Glad to know your human. Damn I don't feel quite as inadequate now.

John, Ian IS a machine. Sorry. He just hadn't had the downward-compatibility patch to allow his more sophisticated processor to recognize the down-graded (dumbed-down) machine he was trying to connect to.:headbang:

Funny you compare him to a "machine." Ian reminds me of Yul Brenner in West World(?) sometimes. I never actually saw the movie, but, you know....

FAITH, guys. You have to trust and believe that the little black box will do what it is suppsed to FOR YOU. It's tough to let go of the idea that YOU have to think and understand. Thirty years ago, on of my professors was grumbling about the new "point 'n grunt" system that someone was working on (Windows) "so that ANY idiot could use a computer."
 

popper

Well-Known Member
Got a GS that was accepted for the HS robotics program. I keep reminding him, robotics is just a machine that does what would be boring for us to do and it's been around for a long time. Computers just have the memory. It's the sensors that really do the wok.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Thank you, Popper!

Wanna make a guest appearance at some high schools to drive that point home? We're "selling" "robotics" as some kind of magic thing to suck in more kids. They all just want to "program robots." That's a small percentage of the whole deal, and yes, the sensors - the eyes and ears. A robot's a piece of pretty painted metal without everything else.

If you get him to grasp what you're saying, he will be one of the ones who really excels and will write his own ticket. It's not just about "programming robots." It's WORK, and the WORK is THINKING. Thinking may have gone out of fashion, but it's still very much required. The fewer people doing it, the more opportunities they have.

I hpe he does well and sticks with it. Push him to supplement his HS training with a tech or junior college-level on top of it, either in robotics or any automation discipline - mechanical, electrical..... If he wants to flat out RULE, get him to do computers and networking. EVERYTHING is being connected to EVERYTHING ELSE, and the guy/gal who knows this will be SET.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
My PID is an InkBird! Great folks about 25 $ for the complete kit on e-Bay
You just wire it !
Amazing accuracy!
Best thing I have ever bought!
 

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Ok JW please share which model did you buy? They look interesting, but doesn't seem to be an end of the variety