Effects of lube quantity

[Snakeoil]

I've been noticing that when I clean my .32-40 Hiwall after a match, I'm getting a lot of tiny lead particles on the patch. But I'm also seeing larger flakes about 1/8" in diameter. They are really more oval in shape. I use Ed's Red and let it soak after a couple runs down the barrel. The flakes show up for several passes thru the barrel. So, since I'm using 30:1, I'm doubtful is is alloy hardness. I normally only lube the bottom two grooves of the bullet. For the match today, I lubed an extra groove so the bottom three were filled. The lube is 50/50 NRA from White Label.

When I cleaned the rifle after the match today, there were hardly any small flecks and only 2 large flakes. I also noticed that with the barrel cleaned a dry patch seemed to pass more freely thru the bore. I also noticed that the accuracy today was excellent. Now, I might just have been on my game today. But I consistently shot small groups in some changing and challenging conditions. At 300, I put just about all my shots into a sub MOA group, with the exception of one that went off the 12 inch target at 3:00, which was due to the wind doing something that I could not see. Several other shooter reported similar misses that they could not explain.

So, next match, or maybe on a practice day, I'm going to try lubing 4 grooves.

I don't expect anyone to remember the details about my rifle. This is an original Hiwall built in 1917 with an original #4 barrel. The bore and groove diameters are oversize for a .32 but not a .33 caliber. Usually, worn out target barrels were opened up to .33 caliber, referred to a "freshing-up the barrel". Harry Pope was well known for doing this. In talking to a few experts like Gary Quinlan, the thought it it was just slightly freshened up, but not enough to make it a .33 cal. I had a custom mold made by Accurate for a bullet to my specs which is breech seated. I cannot used fixed ammo because the chamber is per .32 cal specs and a loaded round will not go all the way home. It's fine with me cuz loading for a breech seater is a lot easier than making fixed ammo and the brass lasts forever.

I have used this rifle out to 500 yds in matches. In the past I've done well. But last couple of 500 yd matches, I struggled beyond 300 yds and it could be this leading issue. I may try it out to 500 at the next match with 4 grooves lubed to see if the accuracy out to 500 improves. The common belief is that the .32-40 is very accurate out to 300 and then falls apart. But that has not been our experience at Wilton with modern CPA 44-1/2 and Miroku Hiwalls. I guess we'll see. My original should shoot as well or better than those. I guess we'll see.

 

[fiver]

makes sense.
50-50 doesn't really have much lube in the lube.
it really relies on bore friction to work.

 

[CZ93X62]

makes sense.
50-50 doesn't really have much lube in the lube.
it really relies on bore friction to work.

Lamar, your last phrase in this post is *interesting*. Would you mind expanding upon that?

Forgive my simple view of the matter--my belief has been that cast bullet drive bands are similar in purpose to piston rings in an automotive engine--they employ the 'Lube' to seal in compression against 'Blow-by' gases and form an ablative coating to minimize wear on the cylinder/barrel and rings/drive band.

 

[Ian]

Take that 50/50, melt it and add about one teaspoon of Dexron III automatic transmission fluid per stick. Then go back to lubing two grooves.

 

[300BLK]

I had an original highwall in 32-40, flatspring action, #3 barel with a far less than perfect bore. Everybody KNOWS that they won't stabilize 200gr bullets, but mine stayed on turkey silhouettes at 385m (421 yards) with the tapered Saeco 200gr over fffg.

Lube quantity? Use as little as you can and still get the desired results.

 

[Snakeoil]

Lamar, your last phrase in this post is *interesting*. Would you mind expanding upon that?

Yeah, I was a bit puzzled by that too, when I read it last night.

Adding ATF is an interesting idea.

My view of the purpose of lube in smokeless powders is to reduce the friction between the bullet and the bore to prevent lead from being deposited in the bore. Since my bore it not perfect and has some very old pitting, I can see those pits acting like a plane or mandolin slicer and slicing a very thin flake of lead off the bullet as it goes buy. The hope is the lube will deter that to some extent. Yesterday I saw a direct correlation to reduced flakes when cleaning and tighter groups in the match. I may load up 20 or so rounds with 4 grooves lubed and test them.

Yes, I agree that it has always been my understanding to use the smallest amount of lube that gets the job done. For a new barrel with a perfect bore, I suspect it may be much less than what a pitted bore may require. My friends who are shooting the same caliber in brand new barrels say there is zero lead when they clean.

Getting back to the ATF, that could very well solve the issue. After the four grooves lubed experiment, I may just give that a try. Although I'm loath to melt down those nicely formed sticks to mix in the ATF. If it works, then I'll be melting them all down, and then re-casting them which is not my favorite activity.

And there is still the chance that I'm worried about nothing. The lead filling pits may very well be improving the barrel's ability to consistently put bullets in the same spot on a target. A negative part of this hobby is we all seem to love creating problems where they do not exist.

I'd love to have access to a high speed camera to see what exits the barrel along with the bullet and combustion products. A bright light might get any lead flakes/flecks to glisten as they exit to differentiate them from unburned powder and such. Maybe shooting thru a white undershirt placed right in front of the muzzle would capture lead flecks that are departing with the bullet. Boy, you can really over-think this stuff, can't ya?

 

[JonB]

>>>SNIP
I have used this rifle out to 500 yds in matches. In the past I've done well. But last couple of 500 yd matches, I struggled beyond 300 yds and it could be this leading issue. I may try it out to 500 at the next match with 4 grooves lubed to see if the accuracy out to 500 improves.

Can I assume you didn't change the lube, or lube quantity from when the rifle did well at 500 until the "struggle" ???
My first thought is something changed.
Brass? you mentioned brass lasted for ever with breech seating, are you sure?
Chamber/Throat? could it become worn?
is there any chance your breech seater has changed? is it adjustable? if so, could it have become out of adjustment?
.
Your pitting theory is interesting, but did that change?
.
I'm not saying it's not the lube, but I am wondering if you haven't over-looked something that has changed.

My view of the purpose of lube in smokeless powders is to reduce the friction between the bullet and the bore to prevent lead from being deposited in the bore. >>>SNIP

Here is Ian's article on bullet lubrication.

Article #6: Cast bullet lubrication

The Basement Articles #6: Cast bullet lubrication After more than four years of non-stop testing by my myself and a few other dedicated accuracy enthusiasts, and an ongoing, 2400-some post thread on another site documenting the endeavor, I'm going to attempt to condense the essential...

www.artfulbullet.com

 

[RBHarter]

Starting with a cast virgin or a raw steel barrel it has been my experience that it takes a long time to bury the sticky micro copper and get the lube "seasoning"out to the muzzle. This is where I'm at with Dad's 25-06' , I'm sure THE load is there but the last 5, ahhh 4 , err 3" inches this time, blows up the 3rd group . Now it's probably my choice of lube and the amount of it . But I don't get purge fliers and it takes around 60-70 rounds for the hint of lube star to show up .......but only over 20" barrels


The carbon/grease/wax will flatten the pits some . Over time .

 

[Snakeoil]

I'm not saying it's not the lube, but I am wondering if you haven't over-looked something that has changed.

Valid point, Jon. But I probably mispoke a bit regarding good luck at 500. I really should go back thru the match results to confirm that was the case. I guess I simply don't remember it appearing to not perform well in the past. It's not an issue of anything changing internally, wrt the barrel. Has not had enough rounds thru it during my ownership. I think I'll dig thru the results book when I go to the club on Wed and see how it did long term. It could be I simply had a few crappy matches because the conditions beat me. That is one of the things about shooting this far with cast bullets in changing conditions. Even when you think you do everything right, there can be a condition change that you won't see and it shows up on the target (or normally OFF the target). But you never really know if it was a condition or a flyer. The only way to try and determine is to poll other shooters to see if similar flyers happened to them. And of course, you need to poll shooters who can read the wind as good (or poorly) as you can. A good example is yesterday. I shot some really nice groups, but managed to put one in the dirt at 300 yds. My buddy who was at the bench next to me and also shooting a .32-40 had that happen to him twice. So, yesterday, it was probably a condition thing.

And to give you an idea of the challenge involved in reading conditions; this is typical of what I would see. 10 foot high flag at 50 yds showing a light 3 to 9 wind. Flag on the 50 yd berm next to it, about 3 feet high showed a hard 3 to 9 wind. 10 foot flag at 100 yds showed a light 9 to 3 wind and flag at 150 showed no wind. Since the distance of the flag/wind from the firing line determines the size of the effect on the bullet, you have to interpolate what you are seeing to make a call or if you are shooting, adjust your hold to put the bullet where you want it to go. I probably spent more time staring at the flags and paying attention to where my partners bullets went than I did anything else yesterday. We try to always say where the shot broke on the target to confirm what the conditions did to that particular bullet. It's not uncommon for what you read to be 180 deg opposite of the effect. We have both held left or right to compensate for the read conditions, only to have our bullet go exactly where we aimed. It can be frustrating. But it is what truly makes it so much fun. Pretty much anyone on the firing line and put every shot in the same hole with a good rifle and zero conditions. It's reading and compensating that separates the men from the boys, or the lucky from the unlucky. And here's an example of lucky. I have a single set trigger on my Hiwall. Yesterday, I was settling into the rifle and getting it on target for the shot. I brought my finger around to the trigger and the shot broke before I was 100% ready. It went just left of center. For the next shot I was much more deliberate in getting on target and ready and did not go near that trigger until I was rock solid on my point of aim. I broke the shot and it doubled that previous shot. This was at 300 yds. So, luck does play a role now and again.

 

[fiver]

carnuba wax is pretty good at filling in the pits or at least softening the edges.

Alan.
there is a small amount of lube pumping going on but your then relying on the base of the bullet being shoved forward to make that happen.
it would do so in the first half inch or so,,,
then what?
the bullet is squished to what it's gonna look like another half inch later and you got nuthin.
after that the lube is relying on friction from the lands and whatever pressure is being applied to the bullet to keep it moving.
at some point that pressure drops off and the bullet relaxes just a bit, this leaves the lube hanging and if it's on the verge of barely flowing or comes off that flow it starts to harden back up and you get a smear of lube as that happens.

the trick is to figure out if the lube isn't flowing in the throat, or if it's quitting on you about 2/3'rds the way down like described above.
there's a cure for both of them.

Ian suggested exactly what i was gonna suggest.
ATF is pretty much backwards built bees wax and it finds it's way into the mix easy peasy.
sometimes you can just flatten a stick with a little heat and pour it on the surface [in a trough] and let it soak in like that alox stuff will.
you don't have to melt the lube just get it soft enough to work like putty.


if it's still there i did a little write up titled does your lube have enough friction over to the other place.

 

[JonB]

SNIP>>>

if it's still there i did a little write up titled does your lube have enough friction over to the other place.

Found it.
Lots of interesting posts.

does your lube have enough friction

here's a good chance to talk about something that is rarely discussed when it comes to boolit lube. FRICTION. now you are just about to click off this thread, thinking dude Run has been up too late again. but think about how does a lube actually work. yeah it lubes. it also seals. it...

castboolits.gunloads.com

 

[Snakeoil]

So I read the first page in the link Jon provided. I have to admit that my head had to re-calibrate. Have not read anything that techical since I retired. And since much of this is new to me, it took a bit of digesting. I took Ian's two posts, which for me were the meat of that first page and put them into a word document to share with others I also fixed the spelling of "boolit". For some reason, that annoys the bejezuz outta me. Ian, I hope you do not mine. I also have to say, at the risk of being accused of blowing smoke up your butt, I'm quite impressed with your depth of knowledge on the subject. Shouldn't you be out curing cancer or something??

So, now that I'm a bit better informed, or maybe more aware is a better description, I have other things to ponder regarding my leading.

Getting back to my specific issue, I did have 8 round left over from Sunday's match. I re-lubed the bullets to using 4 grooves of lube and fired them at 400 yds. Conditions were not conducive to any accuracy testing. Mirage and wind were moving back and forth enough that I was putting bullets on both sides of the turkey WITH scope corrections. When I got home, I ran a dry patch down the bore and it took a lot of strength to push it thru the bore. It came out very black. The carbon fouling was very hard. With that out, another dry patch when thru very easily. What I did not do was try to determine if the fouling was the full length of the bore. I may run the patch from the muzzle end (with a bore guide) to see if it feels the same.

There was no lead on that dry patch. But with an application of Ed's Red to the patch and running it down the bore a few times resulted in some tiny flecks of lead, but not many. I let it soak and the next patch did reveal one tiny flake, maybe 1/16 in diameter. I got one more of those with a few more runs down the barrel. So, was this an improvement. With only 8 rounds versus 40+, it's not conclusive, but promising. However, now having read the first page of that thread, I am leaning toward's Ian's suggestion of adding ATF to the lube. I'm not running downstairs and doing it immediately because it means having to clean out my lubrisizer, pan lubing or buttering the lube on one at a time, none of which encourage me to proceed.

 

[Ian]

So I read the first page in the link Jon provided. I have to admit that my head had to re-calibrate. Have not read anything that techical since I retired

That first page alone is a master class in cast bullet lubrication. With that information anyone should be able to concoct a recipe to serve their needs.

Your fouling means your system is overlubed. Like I said, TWO grooves, and thin it out with ATF. The thing about ATF is it is a paraffin oil with a very high smoke point and some friction modifiers. Without going into great depth, it will modify viscosity without modifying the friction characteristics of the lube.

Finger lube the bullets. If your lube is too stiff to finger lube at 70⁰, thin it some more. You want it like play-doh, not too sticky and not too hard. Too sticky means too ADhesive. You don't want it too sticky, nor do you want it too COhesive or it won't atomize well at the muzzle. You should be able to clean the lube off your hands into little pills by rubbing and only have a slight oily feeling remain.

Last thing is about the leading. Leading is caused either by gas leaks or abrasion. I think your rifle either has an irregularity between the throat entrance and muzzle, or the bullet is entering the throat crooked and getting washed out on one side. An oiled sawdust bullet trap would answer a lot of questions but 60 hard and fast strokes through the barrel with tight, dry, 00 steel wool wrapped around a bronze brush might help, or a dozen soft lead bullets rolled in 280-grit valve lapping compound. The other thing to check is your seating depth, loaded chamber neck clearance, bullet fit to the throat, and concentricity of the whole front end of the cartridge with the chamber and throat to ensure you don't have an eccentric issue casing a gas leak.

 

[Snakeoil]

I'm breech seating, Ian. So the bullet should be straight in the bore. The bore it this rifle is anything but pristine. It was lightly freshened at some point, making it bigger than a standard .32, but not a .33. Harry Pope was a big fan of the .33-40 and freshened many a shot out barrel to .33 cal. My borescope revealed some old pitting and damaged lands. I did make a lead lap and lapped the barrel when I first got it. I may have to give it another round with the lap. My lapping compound is ancient. It's packed in a small tin and is Coverleaf brand. I finish up with JB Bore Paste.

My lube is sticky. If I get it on my hands, it takes some rubbing with a paper towel to get it off. I never tried to get it to roll into pills by rubbing my hands together, but will try. In case you missed it, I use NRA 50/50 from White Label. I'm too lazy to make my own. I used to make my own BP lube using one of Paul Matthews recipes. Worked great. Remember, my primary driver is as a shooter, not a reloader, experimenter, pr scientist.

I guess my next step will be to try a little ATF with my lube per your suggestion.

I appreciate your guidance on this. I might be able to do another test session this Wed.

 

[fiver]

nuther thing that might help your situation is to leave the 50-50 alone but mix in a half stick of carnuba red.
i've shot a lot of that mix and after the first fouling shot my bores look like i just run a floor buffer over it, it'll stay that way till i'm done for the day.

 

[Snakeoil]

nuther thing that might help your situation is to leave the 50-50 alone but mix in a half stick of carnuba red.
i've shot a lot of that mix and after the first fouling shot my bores look like i just run a floor buffer over it, it'll stay that way till i'm done for the day.

Not sure that I understand. Mix carnuba with ATF or with 50/50. You said leave 50/50 alone so not sure.

 

[fiver]

1 stick of 50-50 and a half stick of carnuba red.

this is generally known as BAC or beeswax-alox-carnuba lube.
it's a dryer harder lube, and your looking at needing a softer easier lube than what your using now.

i keep forgetting your not running 50-K type loads.

 

[Ian]

I missed the breech seating and pitted bore thing. In that case you really ought to consider NOT cleaning your barrel. There have been times it was many years between any time more than a dry patch went through the bore of some of my rifles. Once you have the lube, alloy, and powder dialed in just right you don't want to screw it up.

Back on the topic of quantity, what I've found is the better the lube is at lubing, the less of it you need. If you use something that goes liquid right now under pressure and is thin like water when it is melted, you need a lot of it and deep lube grooves. If you use a good blended wax lube with just a touch of high-powered, polar oil like castor bean oil and hold the mess together with a good, high-temperature metal soap like lithium 12-hydroxystearate or sodium stearate, you may only need to lube the space above the gas check or base groove of a flat-base bullet.

Of course bore surface irregularities make this all more of a challenge. Have you considered seating a LDPE disc behind the bullet? Stamp them out of the black Folgers coffee container lids with a sharpened case mouth. That's what a lot of BPCR shooters swear by for sealing the bore behind the bullet. I've done that very thing with smokeless powder in fixed ammunition when seating depth permitted.

What are you using to hold the powder in the case?

 

[Ian]

1 stick of 50-50 and a half stick of carnuba red.

this is generally known as BAC or beeswax-alox-carnuba lube.
it's a dryer harder lube, and your looking at needing a softer easier lube than what your using now.

i keep forgetting your not running 50-K type loads.

Yeah, the carnauba wax would help the rougher bore but I was scratching my head a little at BAC. It would probably work great with one votive candle and a full tablespoon of ATF or heavy laxative-grade, heavy, white mineral oil added per stick to cut the stickiness and viscosity down a good bit.

Why you get thick, sticky fouling with too much LSS "50/50" is that even real NRA 50/50 has too much Alox 350 in it. Alox 350 is the stuff they scrape off the bottom of the brightstock distillation towers after all the volatiles have been boiled off and no more will boil. Think of it as "pyrolized dinasaur squeezings". It doesn't really burn and it doesn't really thin out much when hot, so it makes a great stop leak at the expense of not being a lube that can keep up with the bullet. The beeswax actually becomes the lubricant in that recipe. To help it along, Col. Harrison finally figured out that the Alox 350 needed to have some microcrystalline wax added in with does two things, one it goes to liquid right now when heated past its melt point (abrupt phase change) and two, being an unbranched carbon chain, has a very low viscosity in the liquid state thus it helps the lube flow properly under the heat of friction and pressure and thus aids the beeswax thinning out into a high-speed lubricating oil that will actually make a hydrodynamic film that keeps up with the bullet speed in the barrel. It also purges better and doesn't gum up the bore as badly as 50/50 without it. That special Alox was called 2138-F, contained 11% microcrystalline wax with the balance being Alox 350, and hasn't been produced commercialy in decades. 350 is still available from Lubrizol as far as I know and I think that's what Lars uses. If there's no microwax in there it will be extra gummy. I've used Lyman 50/50, Javalina 50/50 (discontinued sometime after Alox 2138-F was discontinued), and Lars' 50/50 and there is quite a difference until you start throwing stuff at Lars' formula.

If you really want a gummy mess I can send you a couple hollow sticks of LBT Soft. I could also send you some other stuff to try but making it is a whole skill set to acquire and takes a good bit of want-to. If you just want to shoot, try modding what you have and not cleaning your barrel. Or take up powder coating, that will fill the pits and even things out after 50-100 shots.

 

[JonB]

SNIP>>>
That special Alox was called 2138-F, contained 11% microcrystalline wax with the balance being Alox 350, and hasn't been produced commercialy in decades. 350 is still available from Lubrizol as far as I know and I think that's what Lars uses. If there's no microwax in there it will be extra gummy. I've used Lyman 50/50, Javalina 50/50 (discontinued sometime after Alox 2138-F was discontinued), and Lars' 50/50 and there is quite a difference until you start throwing stuff at Lars' formula.

Glenn said 350 was discontinued a few years ago. He has been using what stock he had until not too long ago. This is what he offers now.

Xlox 600 - 1 US Quart Alox 350 [] - $18.00 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce

Xlox 600 - 1 US Quart Xlox 600 has the consistency of a medium grease. This is not a tumble lube. It can not be made into a tumble lube. The traditional NRA formula for 50-50 lube Is 50% BeesWax and 50% Alox 2138F. Alox 2138F is no longer made. Alox 350 was

www.lsstuff.com

"Xlox 600 has the consistency of a medium grease.
This is not a tumble lube. It can not be made into a tumble lube.

The traditional NRA formula for 50-50 lube Is 50% BeesWax and 50% Alox 2138F.
Alox 2138F is no longer made. Alox 350 was the replacement, but it has also been discontinued.
Alox 600 is very similar , but much stiffer than Alox 350 was, but it can still make a very good cast bullet lube.
As a starting point, you might try adding 75% more Alox than your recipie usually calls for.
Instead of 1 pound of Alox to 1 pound of Beeswax, try 1.75 pounds of Alox 600 to 1 pound Beeswax.
We can fit 1 32oz container into a flat rate envelope.
The density of Alox 600 is less than Alox 350, so we can not fit 2# in the container.
This is close to 1.75#."