Heh heh heh.....
- Thread starter Ian
- Start date
Ian
Notorious member
Josh, I don't know why, but when powder coated I just can't get that PB 311-235 to shoot. It shoots great in my ARs and .308s when just lubed in the back two grooves, even with soft alloy, but if you'll look at the lower left target in the attached photo you can see what it did in my .308. I tried some Blackout loads in one of my ARs to day with the same bullet and got about a 3.5" pattern at 50 yards with ten. That same rifle has put three into the same hole at the same range more often than not when not PC'd, and also likes the Lee bullet just fine powder coated, but for some reason something I'm doing with the PC changes the bullets so they don't shoot well at all, with the same loads as uncoated.
I need to update this thread with a good picture of that rifle now that it's all put together, it's nice but I wish the barrel was a much lighter profile, it's an unwieldy tank with the suppressor and even more of a tank when I attach a bipod.
I need to update this thread with a good picture of that rifle now that it's all put together, it's nice but I wish the barrel was a much lighter profile, it's an unwieldy tank with the suppressor and even more of a tank when I attach a bipod.
Josh
Well-Known Member
I have a theory about that, and you may have helped it along. I am betting that it is the method you use, if you were to switch to a spray gun I bet the problem would go away.
Shake & Bake leaves a rather uneven and fairly thick coat over the bullet, this is fine with short and undersized bullets as it will get squished into place and or take up some of the gap left with an undersized bullet.
Take the Lee 230 for instance, I bet it has a bore ride (lol) of approximately .295" and drive bands close to .3085-.309, it also has a short drive band area thanks to the boat tail. So when S&B is applied it helps that bullet fit better, and due to the short bearing surface allows the bullet to do the cha cha slide to lign up right.
Now take my 311-230, same length, but it has a proper bore ride of .301", no boat tail, and proper .311" diameter drive bands. When you S&B that bullet you take a straight projectile and add an uneven jacket. Since my bullet is so long it is easily bent, the bearing surface is also much longer due to no boat tail. So the base pushes straight into the throat but the nose gets bent one direction, that bend will be the opposite of the thickest PC jacket. So you now have a bullet that is bent ever so slightly spinning at 150,000 rpm and it blows groups.
If you wanted to test this further you could just PC the drive bands of my 311-235's and see if the problem persists or goes away.
Shake & Bake leaves a rather uneven and fairly thick coat over the bullet, this is fine with short and undersized bullets as it will get squished into place and or take up some of the gap left with an undersized bullet.
Take the Lee 230 for instance, I bet it has a bore ride (lol) of approximately .295" and drive bands close to .3085-.309, it also has a short drive band area thanks to the boat tail. So when S&B is applied it helps that bullet fit better, and due to the short bearing surface allows the bullet to do the cha cha slide to lign up right.
Now take my 311-230, same length, but it has a proper bore ride of .301", no boat tail, and proper .311" diameter drive bands. When you S&B that bullet you take a straight projectile and add an uneven jacket. Since my bullet is so long it is easily bent, the bearing surface is also much longer due to no boat tail. So the base pushes straight into the throat but the nose gets bent one direction, that bend will be the opposite of the thickest PC jacket. So you now have a bullet that is bent ever so slightly spinning at 150,000 rpm and it blows groups.
If you wanted to test this further you could just PC the drive bands of my 311-235's and see if the problem persists or goes away.
F
freebullet
Guest
I'm not sure how I missed this one but, nice job. A box o' parts to a rifle-priceless.
When I was messing with pc the best loads weren't the same as those lubed lead loads. The pc also seemed to have a narrower happy window accuracy wise. Sometimes a powder change helped, those bullets are different than the former.
When I was messing with pc the best loads weren't the same as those lubed lead loads. The pc also seemed to have a narrower happy window accuracy wise. Sometimes a powder change helped, those bullets are different than the former.
Ian
Notorious member
You're right about the Lee bullet, Josh, its entire nose floats in space and the driving section from the first band to the front of the rear band is basically a bore-rider, with only the base band being above groove diameter.
All of these are only cruising along at about 70K rpm in my .308, and that is barely enough to keep them on-end.
I don't know if it's the ragged bases from powder coating, or the load isn't right, or if they're riveting in the neck and getting bent or crooked, but I doubt it's variance in the coating thickness causing the issue. If it were, the Lees wouldn't shoot well either. The little MP 130s don't shoot well with TG and they are very short bullets. Also, the coating is about 1.2 thousandths thick, consistently according to measuring, and that isn't enough to change much.
Plain-based PC bullets have never shot as well for me as BB or GC bullets have. I stand them on their bases and that has a tendency to make that all-important base edge ragged and uneven, especially after push-through sizing them. I try only to size about .002" on the last go, doing a pre-coat size if necessary, to minimize the base edge roughness
Fiver and FB are right, load will change with PC, and I didn't rework it with the ACE bullets after powder coating. I didn't even change seating depth, just let them engrave lightly, which took out the head start the plain lubed ones had. Even the plain lubed ones riveted and leaded the end of the chamber, the first part of the barrel, and the suppressor quite badly. They shot ok for some reason, probably due to the jump I gave them and the better bases. Oh, and only sizing them ONCE instead of twice.
All of these are only cruising along at about 70K rpm in my .308, and that is barely enough to keep them on-end.
I don't know if it's the ragged bases from powder coating, or the load isn't right, or if they're riveting in the neck and getting bent or crooked, but I doubt it's variance in the coating thickness causing the issue. If it were, the Lees wouldn't shoot well either. The little MP 130s don't shoot well with TG and they are very short bullets. Also, the coating is about 1.2 thousandths thick, consistently according to measuring, and that isn't enough to change much.
Plain-based PC bullets have never shot as well for me as BB or GC bullets have. I stand them on their bases and that has a tendency to make that all-important base edge ragged and uneven, especially after push-through sizing them. I try only to size about .002" on the last go, doing a pre-coat size if necessary, to minimize the base edge roughness
Fiver and FB are right, load will change with PC, and I didn't rework it with the ACE bullets after powder coating. I didn't even change seating depth, just let them engrave lightly, which took out the head start the plain lubed ones had. Even the plain lubed ones riveted and leaded the end of the chamber, the first part of the barrel, and the suppressor quite badly. They shot ok for some reason, probably due to the jump I gave them and the better bases. Oh, and only sizing them ONCE instead of twice.
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Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Interesting project. Having PC as an added variable sure simplifies everything............NOT.
Studiously working to avoid PC, but that group with the Model 14 and PCed Bayou Bullets 135 WCs was enough for me
to purchase 500 to test more thoroughly.
Now you finds some pigs and have a party.
Bill
Studiously working to avoid PC, but that group with the Model 14 and PCed Bayou Bullets 135 WCs was enough for me
to purchase 500 to test more thoroughly.
Now you finds some pigs and have a party.
Bill
Ian
Notorious member
Actually it does simplify a whole lot of things, you just have to work up a load for it like anything else. Your alloy selection still needs to match the powder, your castings still need to be of high quality, and all the other things you'd normally do for a successful cast bullet load. What you'll find different is grain for grain, powder coated bullets will shoot a little faster than their bare, lubricated counterparts. Also you'll find that the sizing requirements are going to be a little different for best accuracy. Typically my guns are liking bullets somewhere between typical cast bullet sizes and groove dimension, or about .001" over groove dimension. What you don't have to worry so much about with PC in rifles is filling the throat or engraving the nose, the jacket can withstand a lot more "wiggle room" to find bore center as it's being kicked out of the case without damage than bare cast bullets can.
Ian
Notorious member
I understand. Powder coating and the epoxy coatings are not the end-all, be-all solution for the cast bullet handloader. The coating can solve certain problems if you are actually experiencing those problems. Shooting cast bullets through suppressors and AR-15s can be an issue which powder coating can completely solve, as one example. I end up coating a lot of things that I really don't need to just because it's convenient and interesting to me, not because it is in any way necessary or an improvement over other methods of preparing a casting for flight.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
When I get home I will be testing the HiTech coated Bayou 137 gr WCs, which look pretty much like a H&G 50 to
a quick look. Will compare side by side with RCBS, Lyman 358091 and H&G 50 just to see which it is most like. Of
course, it is some commercial mold, probably a Magma, which most commercial casters use.
If they outshoot my cast - after doing more BLL testing, I will decide to either just buy a couple thousand and
be done with it for quite a while, or gear up for a new coating method.
Coating for a suppressor in .300 BLK is another attraction, but Bayou only offers handgun bullets, no .30 cal except
.30 Carbine.
Bill
a quick look. Will compare side by side with RCBS, Lyman 358091 and H&G 50 just to see which it is most like. Of
course, it is some commercial mold, probably a Magma, which most commercial casters use.
If they outshoot my cast - after doing more BLL testing, I will decide to either just buy a couple thousand and
be done with it for quite a while, or gear up for a new coating method.
Coating for a suppressor in .300 BLK is another attraction, but Bayou only offers handgun bullets, no .30 cal except
.30 Carbine.
Bill
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Ian, Thanks!
I will see how the Bayou polycoated do and if they do real well, I will probably take you
up on your kind offer. I have held off trying cast with conventional lubes in my can because
it isn't disassemblable, so if it gets filled with crud, I am kinda screwed.
Bill
I will see how the Bayou polycoated do and if they do real well, I will probably take you
up on your kind offer. I have held off trying cast with conventional lubes in my can because
it isn't disassemblable, so if it gets filled with crud, I am kinda screwed.
Bill
I have found accuracy degrades when PC (or HiTek) is applied to the base. Coating on base is not flat. I previously thought my gas key was getting plugged from the uncoated PB. Seems like my rifle gas is OK, carbine gas (both 308 GCd) isn't. BO carbine (PB) gets clogged too. Hmm? I hitek for pistol & ESPC rifle. So far 2700 GC in 308 & 2100 PB in BO, both about 1 1/2 MOA @ 100 - about the best I can do. Note for you guys with cans - seems like my gas key gets clogged with PC residue - where the gas fps is reduced. Gas tube is fine. When I used a flash hider I also found deposits on the hider but not at the crown. IMO the trick is going to be finding a good solvent for the 'burned' coating. I used a twist drill to clean the key, stuff is hard but came out as powder.