How Are Your Knife Sharpening Skills???

[L Ross]

One thing I can not figure out is this. I can make an axe that is razor sharp but a knife only so so sharp. I think it has to do with how stiff the axes are??? I use files, grinders, belt sanders to remove the damage on most of them then stones, sandpaper, buffing wheel and strop to get them the way I like.

I also like to use OLD axes. The new ones are not the same steel anymore. Maybe thats what it is? The older axes use a better quality steel?

I certainly think so Tomme. Steel made from virgin iron ore and the various additives to attain certain desirable qualities should be better than an amalgamation of recycled scrap. That is just my opinion of course.
When I played at blacksmithing as a spin off of our Historical Reenacting hobby I sought out old farm junk piles. Some of the items I wanted to recreate needed wrought iron, some carbon steel, some just plain old mild steel.. When it came to making fire strikers old files were far superior to anything make after the 1960's.
Tomme, have you ever run across an axe blade that had a tool/carbon steel cutting edge sandwiched between mild steel or even wrought iron sides. If you look very carefully you can see the forge welding lines. I have a couple of hewing hatchets made like that and they are a delight.

 

[JustJim]

I watched a video of a guy dressing and butchering a buffalo in a different historically correct way...with rocks. He had killed it with a stick and a rock, too, in a very expert way.

Around 2000 I took 3 semi-free-roaming bison (escaped from a ranch the spring before): one with a spear-thrower, one with sinew-backed bow, one with a cut-down Brown Bess. In field-dressing and processing I compared repro tools based on artifacts recovered from some kill sites in the area with an original "I Wilson" butcher.

If you make the initial cut and from there work from the inside, skinning a recently-wallowed cow with a stone tool isn't much of a problem (once you wrap the stone "handle" with a clump of the longer hair from the neck, otherwise the fluids make the tool slick). WIth a little re-touching I could skin with one or two tools. Bone tools were a solid "fail" cutting the hide, with the edge quickly lost. Steel required frequent re-touches for the same amount of work in hide covered with dried mud.

Processing was another matter. Here the bone tools were great: the very coarse "toothy" edge and longer blade made boning and cutting the meat go much faster than the shorter stone tool. The advantages of steel were that it didn't require importing the stone for tools, and that it could be sharpened in less time than making and grinding a bone tool. I'd have to dig out my notes to be sure, but as I recall the steel knife was about 50% quicker than bone when slicing the meat for drying. All in all it was an interesting project.

As for older steels, I'm still working on that. I've gathered bog iron and refined it in a bloomery, worked it into wrought iron, made blister steel and forged that into shear steel and double-shear steel, and experimented with crucible steel. I'm one the fence with the crucible steel; my wrought isn't refined enough to match the stuff from Sweden that Huntsman was using. My end results (carbon content) aren't as consistent with the crucible steel as I get with the double-shear steel. OTOH, there are no slag stringers in the crucible steel.

Still working on the test blades. I'm working on copies of a knife (actually several) recovered from a village that was occupied around 1780-1795. The knives are of the French pattern but that late were probably English-made. In that period, British trade knives would have been double-shear steel at best, which is consistent with the one original blade (a surface find from the area) that was sacrificed for analysis.

As for Tomme Boy's question about older steels, I wonder if the issue isn't that back then once they had optimized their refinement and heat-treating they focused on perfecting the form for the intended purpose. Today, similar tools seem to lack the same refinement in form and function, probably because we don't use them with the same intensity. I have smoothing planes that are wonderful--far better than most of the modern offerings--but today we are more likely to use an electric planer or wide-belt sander with the same end goal in mind.

 

[seagiant1]

Hi,
Most old Axes were made of Wrought Iron with a Steel Bit...

Usually or a lot of times old files for the edge.

The same technique is used today with mild steel as the base, but real Wrought Iron...

Forge welded easier!

 

[Tomme boy]

I certainly think so Tomme. Steel made from virgin iron ore and the various additives to attain certain desirable qualities should be better than an amalgamation of recycled scrap. That is just my opinion of course.
When I played at blacksmithing as a spin off of our Historical Reenacting hobby I sought out old farm junk piles. Some of the items I wanted to recreate needed wrought iron, some carbon steel, some just plain old mild steel.. When it came to making fire strikers old files were far superior to anything make after the 1960's.
Tomme, have you ever run across an axe blade that had a tool/carbon steel cutting edge sandwiched between mild steel or even wrought iron sides. If you look very carefully you can see the forge welding lines. I have a couple of hewing hatchets made like that and they are a delight.

I have 2 ace heads that I found metal detecting a early 1800's farm. They are still in rust. I have not got around to getting the rust off yet. My last battery charger took a crap for putting them through the electrolysis to remove it.

I still have 2 old 1800s school yards to detect. One the building is still standing.

 

[StrawHat]

How sharp is sharp enough? Other than shaving with a straight razor.
Oh certainly planes and tools, but a belt knife or a pocket knife?

This! How sharp is sharp enough? Every day I get requests for “razor sharp”. For some reason, only guys ask for this. I ask if they use this knife for shaving? Because if so, then yes, I am happy to make it razor sharp but it will not work in the kitchen. If the knife is a kitchen knife, a razor edge will defeat the purpose of its purpose. A kitchen knife needs a good, toothy edge that will withstand repeated contact with a cutting board.

One thing I can not figure out is this. I can make an axe that is razor sharp but a knife only so so sharp. I think it has to do with how stiff the axes are??? I use files, grinders, belt sanders to remove the damage on most of them then stones, sandpaper, buffing wheel and strop to get them the way I like…

If you are expecting a polished edge to cut as well as a toothy edge, good luck. A good kitchen edge needs some tooth to cut efficiently.

Kevin

 

[Jeff H]

...
If you are expecting a polished edge to cut as well as a toothy edge, good luck. A good kitchen edge needs some tooth to cut efficiently.

Kevin

Cannot disagree on kitchen knives. A knife that will shave cleanly and comfortably can slide around on a tomato skin.

But, I get where Tomme is coming from too, because a finely polished edge on a wood-working tool will stand up longer and keep cutting. A toothy edge WILL cut for a while, but the microscopic "teeth" will beak down. Works as well on an axe edge as a plane-iron to polish the edge as finely as possible, requiring little more than an occasional strop to keep cutting WOOD cleanly.

 

[StrawHat]

Cannot disagree on kitchen knives. A knife that will shave cleanly and comfortably can slide around on a tomato skin.

But, I get where Tomme is coming from too, because a finely polished edge on a wood-working tool will stand up longer and keep cutting. A toothy edge WILL cut for a while, but the microscopic "teeth" will beak down. Works as well on an axe edge as a plane-iron to polish the edge as finely as possible, requiring little more than an occasional strop to keep cutting WOOD cleanly.

And a razor requires a different edge, so does an axe, so does an adze, a scorp and a myriad of other tools.
It strictly depends on the tool and its intended purpose.

Kevin

 

[Tomme boy]

I like watching this guy forging. He makes some really cool stuff. And historical and his take on it.

Nils Ögren

My name is Nils Ögren and I am a Swedish Blacksmith! I began forging in the spring of 2017, with only an old barbeque grill, a hair dryer, a hammer & a big piece of metal as an anvil. I now have my own workshop and i make videos documenting my journey as a craftsman and a blacksmith on a monthly...

www.youtube.com

 

[Edward R Southgate]

I can get them scary sharp .

 

[porthos]

my father taught me to sharpen and i can put a razor edge on any knife using stones. on another note after reading this post and remarks; someone tell me what is a "toothy edge" and how do you achive that?? my guess is to wipe a coarse stone along the edge. but. someone clue me in...

 

[Bazoo]

A toothy edge is an edge that is sharp but not polished very smooth so that it has bite to it. Sharpen a knife with a soft Arkansas stone, and feel the edge, it will want to dig in, though it's only moderately sharp. But if you refine that edge and go all the way to an ultra fine stone and then strop the edge, it is still very sharp, but depending on the steel, it can glide over the work to be cut instead of grabbing.

Some steels will produce good toothy edge with a medium to fine stone, but lack the grain structure to be able to retain that bite when they are refined. Case's Surgical Stainless steel is an example. If I sharpen my Case SS knife on a red/fine DMT stone I get a good toothy edge. If I strop it, I lose a bit of the toothyness, but it still has a good bite. However, if I refine that edge using a green/extra fine stone, or worse, a translucent Arkansas stone, it gets "sharper" but it doesn't bite into the medium to be cut as readily. Instead, it will slide right off of some things.

Usually, old type carbon steels will retain a level of toothyness even when refined.

 

[Bronco72]

I can get'em to shave the hair on my arms! They, arms, look kind of funny after a few knives what with all the bald patches on my arms

 

[Jeff H]

I can get'em to shave the hair on my arms! They, arms, look kind of funny after a few knives what with all the bald patches on my arms

Yeah, I stopped testing edges that way. Make you look like you have mange.

 

[Jeff H]

I recently bought a cheap Chines knife, which had overall appealing features. I figured if it was junk steel or a poor HT, it at least would make a good pattern for something using better steel, while refining a few ALMOST perfect features.

The steel is called DC53 and I'd never heard of it. Looked it up and found the claim that it was "an improvement over D2."

HAH! I'm a fan of D2 for knives and won't think twice about buying one made from D2. I figured this DC53 may be as good or even "better" (for a knife blade), or it may even be junk steel and the maker was lying. Yeah, I'm sure that happens.

I reprofiled the edge to eliminate the abrupt transition where the secondary edge bevel meets the flat grind face bevels. I'm picky about that and want the transition to be subtle and smooth. I will tell you that the steel in the cheap knife is every bit as wear-resistant as D2, because I rarely resort to the belt grinder for such work - I do it manually. Well, I took it to the belt grinder after a while and then went back to manual mode.

Once I got the profile I wanted, I took it all down to 600 grit and then 1000 grit and stropped. Just like my D2 edges, it defies the above otherwise sound logic and takes a highly refined edge which is not at all toothy, but digs in too. I put the edge to a disadvantage by making it rather acute in combined angle and am not seeing any chipping or rolling working with seasoned ash, black locust and beech and the keen edge lasts. Used in the kitchen on an Epicurian cutting board (which is about like paper Micarta) and it sliced veggies and raw meat (beef and chicken) like a champ. I was surprised and pleased.

Never heard of DC53, but I'm impressed.

 

[smokeywolf]

I try to stay away from Chinese steel whenever possible and practical.

Back in the early years of the 2000s I was working in the machine shop at Universal Studios. We were tasked with drilling a batch of 3/4" dia. holes in about twenty 3/4" thick 316L stainless plates.

I was asked to shop for drills to do the job. Read a blurb that said the drills being produced by Greenfield, while ground in the U.S., were of inferior Chinese HS/cobalt steel. I pointed out PTD or Guhring HS/cobalt TiAlN coated split point drills for the department head to buy; they were a little over twice the price of the Greenfield drills, but being a very standard size would more than pay for themselves over the next few years.
Dept. head said no and that he would find cheaper drills. I recommended against Greenfield or Cleveland (Greenfield bought out Cleveland in 1995).
He bought Greenfield drills.

No flood coolant, just brushing, the other machinist was having to resharpen every 20 minutes. I had a mister and was resharpening every 40 minutes or so. With a good quality drill, probably could have stretched that to well over an hour.
As I recall, it was an all day job, with 2 hours each of overtime (0600 to 1630).
I think perhaps they saved about the same money on the drills that they paid the other machinist and myself in overtime.

Whenever buying American made products, I almost always look for info on where they source their material.

 

[JonB]

Last week I ordered a 1x30" abrasive belt assortment for my HF belt sander. All I've used for 25+ yrs is the HF belts in 80 and 120 grit that I bought with the sander, yep, they are 25+ yrs old ...and still have a bunch of them in the box.
This new assortment has 80, 100, 120, 240, 400, 800.
I don't need to do any knife sharpening today, but I will be ready when I need to.

 

[Glaciers]

I admit I have not read this entire thread. But I will.
Having said that, the parts I have read sound like you guys are a bunch of purists. I’m not knocking it, not at all, it’s something to strive for. I gave up years ago. I can and have used to sharpen knives, but in 1989 I got into the fishing charter business in Valdez.
The knife use was slow at first as I was an owner operator, so two or three filet knife’s a bait knife and a couple belt knives. I could handle keeping them sharp. But, then we had two boats, then three, at the peak of my Charter business in a feeble attempt to make money, we had 5 boats. The small boat was 30’ by 12 wide. Anyway I obviously had hired Captains. At some point I had possibly an inventory of probably 50 filet knives and probably a half a dozen bait knives. I only had one permanent captain who was a true professional and primadonna, but, took great care of the vessel, clients and was a halibut catching machine. Mike won the Derby twice and placed half a dozen times. Took great care of the fish gear and you could eat off the top of the Volvo’s.
All the other captains were primadonna’s as well but with only some of the positives that Mike had.
But, back to knives. We worked long days. If we were Dock to dock in 12 hours we were having a good day. The largest catch we recorded was over 2700 pounds for 6 clients on a two day trip. Usually 300 was a minimum with 600 to 800 pounds per boat a day. Dull knives wasn’t an option. The primadonna’s would just stop by the bait shop in the morning for a 35 pound box of bait and a new knife. So I bought an electric sharpener.


But I could sharpen a box of knives in about 2 hours once a week. I still have a pile of knives left over from the business 12 years ago.

 

[StrawHat]

I admit I have not read this entire thread. But I will.
Having said that, the parts I have read sound like you guys are a bunch of purists. I’m not knocking it, not at all, it’s something to strive for. I gave up years ago. I can and have used to sharpen knives, but in 1989 I got into the fishing charter business in Valdez.
The knife use was slow at first as I was an owner operator, so two or three filet knife’s a bait knife and a couple belt knives. I could handle keeping them sharp. But, then we had two boats, then three, at the peak of my Charter business in a feeble attempt to make money, we had 5 boats. The small boat was 30’ by 12 wide. Anyway I obviously had hired Captains. At some point I had possibly an inventory of probably 50 filet knives and probably a half a dozen bait knives. I only had one permanent captain who was a true professional and primadonna, but, took great care of the vessel, clients and was a halibut catching machine. Mike won the Derby twice and placed half a dozen times. Took great care of the fish gear and you could eat off the top of the Volvo’s.
All the other captains were primadonna’s as well but with only some of the positives that Mike had.
But, back to knives. We worked long days. If we were Dock to dock in 12 hours we were having a good day. The largest catch we recorded was over 2700 pounds for 6 clients on a two day trip. Usually 300 was a minimum with 600 to 800 pounds per boat a day. Dull knives wasn’t an option. The primadonna’s would just stop by the bait shop in the morning for a 35 pound box of bait and a new knife. So I bought an electric sharpener.


But I could sharpen a box of knives in about 2 hours once a week. I still have a pile of knives left over from the business 12 years ago.

The “Chef’s Choice” is a decent machine, often recommended by epicurean magazines and shows. What it lacks in finesse, it makes up for in ease of use. I have tested it, and most other machines. I use stones or a slow speed belt.

Kevin

 

[L Ross]

One of the few good things to come of my Covid and Pneumonia plagued trip to Florida a year ago was the purchase of this gizmo at a bait shop down in Destin. A guy manning the till was sharpening the knives they used in the shop to cut bait or something. They were those white composite handled, stainless steel bladed bait knives. I was buying one of the knives to leave in my boat to do emergency hacking and slashing after I had a floating tree climb my anchor rope a couple of years ago. I watched him give each knife a lick or two and I asked him if I could see a sharpened blade. Reluctantly he handed a knife over admonishing me to be careful. I was favorably impressed.
The counter man said, "They're made in U.S.A. and I have a bunch over there on the wall and they're only $8.99."
I would rather buy something useful rather than a souvenir T shirt so I bought the bait knife and sharpener. Well hot damn, talk about a lazy way to put a quick rough edge on a knife. The sharpener now resides in a kitchen drawer. It is perfect if you get a ding on a blade, or notice a shiny spot on an edge. A stroke or two with the Accusharp, then a couple of swipes with my Buck diamond hone and you're back in business.
There should never be a dull kitchen knife in America ever again. So simple anyone can do it and relatively safe to boot.
Hold the knife firmly on a counter top with the blade sticking out into space, sharp edge up. Place the Accusharp vee notch on the blade all the way back by the handle and draw it slowly and firmly to the point. You can feel the carbide rods cutting. One of two swipes and you cannot see the new edge. If you feel it, there is a toothiness that I like to hone away, but actually it is a useable edge for kitchen work and probably 90% sharper than most of the junk the average person is trying to cook with.

 

[Winelover]

^^^^ I have one of those sharpeners. Forget the brand but the whole thing is yellow. Decent for quick sharpening.