I need some loading advice…

[BBerguson]

Here’s the information…

Cartridge: 308 Win
Bullet - NOE 225gr cast with gas check. No grease grooves and it’s a spitzer. I’m sure it has a decent BC.
Powder I’d like to try but have no data: IMR Enduron 8133

There is load data for a lot of cartridges but not 308 for this very slow powder. One I pulled off is for 243 win with a 115 gr bullet, a very heavy bullet for this caliber. Starting load of 42.2 grs, Max is 48. 107gr bullet starting load is 45.3. 6.5 PRc with153gr starting load 52gr. All of the load data is for heavy for caliber bullets.

I know from loading 3031 in 45-70 that if the powder weight is too low the powder won’t ignite properly and I’ve watched the bullet come out of the muzzle. Even chronographed one at 113.5 fps!

Things I “think” I know…. Slow powder has a more forgiving pressure curve. Slow powder requires a full case for proper ignition. I think it’s harder to blow up a gun with slow powder, fast pistol powder is easy, slow powder, not so much. But, I’ve been playing with straight walled cartridges and they are more forgiving than shoulder cartridges. Rifle bullets seem to be more accurate with a slower starting push. That’s about it.

I’m not sure I could get enough powder in the case to cause problems. Win 296 in 44 magnum as an example.
The load I’m shooting now is 18gr of IMR 4227. No velocity readings yet. It’s shooting around an 1” at 50 yards and I’d like it to do better as I want to hunt deer with this and would like to think it could be a 200yd deer killer. With that said, I want more velocity for that range and I suspect I’m around 1400 fps. Cloudy this coming week so maybe I’ll chrony it on Tuesday So I’m not just guessing At velocity.

I’m going to email Hodgdon but not sure if they’ll commit to an answer.

Ok, now your thoughts! Have you ever developed a load from “scratch”? I know we all have but with this one I have so little information to go by and what I have is with other cartridges and bullet weights.

BB

 

[fiver]

done a few.
i'm not for sure on the powder speed, but i'm fairly sure it's slower than their7977 which i damn near 870 speed.
your not only looking at a case full with stuff like that, but a hotter primer and possibly a kicker powder to get thing to not only burn clean but to get enough velocity to make burning that much powder worth while.

just as a hmmm thing to think on.
it takes about 45grs. of 4831 in the 308 under a bullet that weighs 170grs. to start burning clean.
that indicates the pressure is close to 50-K, finally,,, the velocity is 2400+.


anyway.
Al might see this and give some of the details on how he was shooting that old super slow mil-surp powder successfully.
airc he was closer to 1900 fps or so.

 

[RBHarter]

As close as I got to that was a x39 with a paper patch 200 gr spitzer and 22-25 gr of 4350 , about 35kpsi and 16-1800 fps MV with a 24" barrel.

Too slow and not enough volume to get hurt .

 

[Michael]

I seriously doubt you could stuff/cram/pack enough 8133 into a 308 Win to have any pressure issues. Even IMR 4064 is a compressed charge at 41grs for 200gr slug. I am with fiver.

Comparing a 243 or 6.5 PRC with the 308, while the heavy for caliber bullet thing kinda makes sense, the expansion ratios between the 243/6.5 are drastically different than the 308, and in turn has a big influence on powder selection and performance. A quick look at Hodgdon's website does not show 8133 being used for a .30 cal round until one gets up to the 300 Win Mag using 200gr plus bullets.

8133 will go bang, but there much more efficient/cost effective options.

 

[BBerguson]

So with powder this slow, is load density more important than whatever the weight of the charge ends up being?

I got this powder in a trade and have just the one 1lb bottle. I have a 243 but no desire or need to shoot 107gr bullets out of it. My half assed logic (HAL) tells me it might just work well with a 225gr bullet in the 308 but the last thing I want to do is damage my rifle with HAL. I’m not looking for crazy fast velocities, thinking in the 2000fps range would be ideal.

Michael mentioned 300 Win mag. Only loads shown start with a 200gr bullet, 73.6 - 80 grains and end with a 230gr , 72.3 - 78.6 grains. That’s the smallest of the 30 calibers they show data for and they have loads for about every larger 30 cal there is.

The powder is in my shop and I didn’t go get it yet. I’m going to experiment to see what will fit with that bullet, it may be less than the starting charge for the 243. Any maybe I’ll load just one to see if it will ignite.

 

[BudHyett]

Contact the manufacturer. (913-362-9455)

Be sure to explain your dilemma in that you want to shoot up this pound of powder.

 

[CZ93X62]

Caveats first.......

I have zero experience with or knowledge about 'Enduron 8133'. I derive from commentary that it is a slow rifle powder--so now now I know more than I did before perusing this thread.

I have considerable experience reloading 308 Win, but it is all redcoats and all 147-168 grain bullet weights at full value.

My time-in-grade with the 50 BMG ball powder began c. 1996 when I met Senor Buckshot (Rick Tunell) at our local range. His mentorship was a Great Leap Forward for my shooting/reloading/casting hobby. From Rick I learned about Shooters.com--milsurp powder sites--refined casting methods--and in the bargain met a great guy. Among the info I noted at some point was his great fondness for a full case of WC-860 powder (55.0 grains) in the 6.5 x 55 Swede cartridge under 140 grain bullets in his several milsurp Swede rifles. This load gave about 2450 FPS--right at military specs--and shot very accurately. It did similar things for me in a milsurp Swede I had for a year or so, and still does with the Ruger 77R I have in 6.5 x 55 to this day.

The best thing about the WC-860 milsurp fuel was its price--$2.50/lb. at GI Brass c. 1994. By the time I got true religion it had climbed to $3.50/lb., so I got 4 flasks of the stuff with 2 x WC-852 slow lot for my 30-06s et al and life was good.

I was so happy with the outcome of my 6.5 x 55 loads--sub-MOA groups to 200 yards--I decided to try the 30-06 and jacketed bullets. Not spectacular with 150 or 165 grain bullets. I set the things aside and life interrupted much of my shooting in late 2004 with severe illness and subsequent retirement. Shooting was infrequent 2005-2008, then we moved to Ridgecrest in July of that year. I re-started my hobby shooting and greatly expanded my hunting as well.

Still having a couple flasks of WC-860 laying around and now having unlimited range access again, I re-tried the 30-06/WC-860 combo again--this time using the cast Lee C309-200 bore riders atop a full case of WC-860 with slight compression (60.0 grains) and Federal #215 primers. OH, MY--those worked! Very consistent velocities of 1950-2000 FPS and quite accurate--1.25"-1.5" groups at 100 yards. No zombie/unburned powder granules, either. There is a bit more powder ash than with IMR 4320 full-value loads, but nothing excessive.

Lamar spoke of duplexing loads with the WC-860.......that does not apply for me with the neck-and-shoulder cartridge calibers. That has only been tried successfully so far in 45/70, and I plan to try this regimen in my 38/55 with 250 grain Lee castings in a while; the 45/70 has been a thorough success--I have probably fired 2000 rounds of 45/70 so loaded. It gives black powder velocities and fine accuracy in three different rifles. I load 6.0 x IMR 4198 first, then pour 48.0 grains atop that first small portion and seat a Lee 405 grain with slight compression to snug things up AND prevent bullet setback while the cartridges shunt down the magazine tube of my Marlin 1895; a moderate crimp keeps the package securely wrapped.

FWIW!

 

[fiver]

one thing to keep in mind is the straight versus necked cases and expansion ratios.
slow in a straight wall case is more than fast in a necked case,,, yep, even with black powder.

anyway in this 'case' it'd be real hard to get into any trouble with pretty much any combination.
unless your going full retard and dropping 13grs. of red-dot in the case first.
the more you work it the better your results IMO.
jam the bullet, use federal 215's,,,, etc. all will probably help more than hurt.

it's kind of like using BMG-50 in the 7 mauser with a 175gr. jacketed bullet... 2400 fps is pretty much where your gonna start, and end, no matter how much powder you hammer down in there.

 

[BBerguson]

It is really slow…. 163 on Hogdons newest burn rate chart with 172 powders listed.

 

[CZ93X62]

Just remember--burn rate charts are helpful like a photograph--a 2 dimensional representation of a three dimensional reality.

 

[BBerguson]

case holds 40grs to the base of the bullet.

 

[BBerguson]

done a few.
i'm not for sure on the powder speed, but i'm fairly sure it's slower than their7977 which i damn near 870 speed.
your not only looking at a case full with stuff like that, but a hotter primer and possibly a kicker powder to get thing to not only burn clean but to get enough velocity to make burning that much powder worth while.

just as a hmmm thing to think on.
it takes about 45grs. of 4831 in the 308 under a bullet that weighs 170grs. to start burning clean.
that indicates the pressure is close to 50-K, finally,,, the velocity is 2400+.


anyway.
Al might see this and give some of the details on how he was shooting that old super slow mil-surp powder successfully.
airc he was closer to 1900 fps or so.

It is slower than the 7977. Don’t know how much other than it’s 156 vs 163. Who knows what that really equates to…

The only “dual” load I’ve ever done is in my flintlock using some 3F under Pyrodex. It worked well.

I don’t think this load is worth experimenting with….

 

[fiver]

i mean [shrug] it's just powder,,, your gonna burn it up quick scooping the case full and seating a bullet.
if you had a 28 nosler or 7mm westerner [not the 6.8 blah-blah, the real westerner] or maybe a LaPua? you'd maybe be able to load what? 100 rounds.

 

[Ben]

I believe when powder companies choose to not list any reloading data for a particular cartridge and a particular powder they have a very good reason for that decision .

 

[Missionary]

If nothing else be good for making rocket motors to propel model cars down the dead end street just before dark.

 

[Gary]

I believe when powder companies choose to not list any reloading data for a particular cartridge and a particular powder they have a very good reason for that decision .

Yes; to sell more reloading manuals.

 

[bruce381]

thread drif WOW duplex loads. I knew a guy when I started laoding and he loaded 44 mag.
used a TRIPLEX load of bullseye, then unique then topped of case with 2400or 296 I think. all powder compressed or had filler do not remember.
Glad I never listened to him and always load bye the book.

 

[CZ93X62]

thread drif WOW duplex loads. I knew a guy when I started laoding and he loaded 44 mag.
used a TRIPLEX load of bullseye, then unique then topped of case with 2400or 296 I think. all powder compressed or had filler do not remember.
Glad I never listened to him and always load bye the book.

That was how Dick Casull got the 454 Casull to do what it did in the 1960s. That was printed in the 3rd Edition of Frank Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" c. 1967. I've duplexed a bit with IMR 4198 under WC-860, but that is as much adventure travel as I care to engage in.

 

[Spindrift]

I've no experience with 8133, but I can share my thoughts anyway

This powder is at the "very bottom" of the burn rate chart, together with other ".50 BMG" propellants. These powders are typically heavily coated with burn retardants.

- it seems impossible to reach excessive pressure in the .308win, regardless of bullet weight and powder charge (of this powder alone)

- I don't think you can achieve consistent combustion in the .308win, at least not without resorting to Voodoo tricks like duplexing.

I would rather try to sell it, unless I had a bathtub full, and no other alternatives.

 

[fiver]

we routinely run stuff like clays and red-dot and don't think twice about it.
unless we actually delve into the real pressures we would see if Lyman put them in their manuals,, we just take it for granted those 30-40 year old loads are dead on safe

i kind of get a kick when guys say i run blah-blah at 1400-1500 fps and never ever know they are running a 45K load.
when you talk about running a case full of super slow or two steps too slow powder and they hear stuff like 45-50grs of this or that in a 308 case their eyes get all big.
they never ever look or think about you also running @45-K only at 23-2400 or so, and without having to resort to linotype.

i always get a laugh at the cowboy dudes that won't use anything but a case full of that donut powder thinking just cause they can see their bullets fly through the air their pressure is like 10-K.
ummm it ain't.