I need some loading advice…

[L Ross]

I try to tell guys that the "donut" powder burns as fast as Bullseye and they think I'm nuts. I've seen them treating it like some sort of bulk BP substitute. I have no idea how such BS gets started.

 

[Michael]

That stuff is anything but low pressure. Ya, let them shoot a cylinder of each in a 45 Colt with a 255gr slug, BP substitute my.....

That will seperate the dandies from the men.

 

[CZ93X62]

That stuff is anything but low pressure. Ya, let them shoot a cylinder of each in a 45 Colt with a 255gr slug, BP substitute my.....

That will seperate the dandies from the men.

Yessir. I did exactly that some years back--in 45 Colt with #454424 and about 90%-density loadings of TB. They bucked just a bit--'Cowboy Loads mi nalgas!

I still have about a flask and a half of TB in the locker. It's pretty docile loaded at 70%-density in 357 cases over #358429, and accurate. Since my 45 Colt experience that is as heavy as I load that weird donut-shaped stuff. In that mode it behaves well in straight-wall revolver loads with cast bullets.

 

[BBerguson]

Well, I decided to load one and try it. It shot fine with no indication of a hang fire. Ended up being 41.4 gr and a CCI LRM primer. I’m going to load 10 more tonight and try them tomorrow to see if they group at all. If they group, I’ll move them out to 200 yards to see how much they drop and if it’s not sunny when I do that I’ll try them over the crony.

 

[BBerguson]

we routinely run stuff like clays and red-dot and don't think twice about it.
unless we actually delve into the real pressures we would see if Lyman put them in their manuals,, we just take it for granted those 30-40 year old loads are dead on safe

i kind of get a kick when guys say i run blah-blah at 1400-1500 fps and never ever know they are running a 45K load.
when you talk about running a case full of super slow or two steps too slow powder and they hear stuff like 45-50grs of this or that in a 308 case their eyes get all big.
they never ever look or think about you also running @45-K only at 23-2400 or so, and without having to resort to linotype.

i always get a laugh at the cowboy dudes that won't use anything but a case full of that donut powder thinking just cause they can see their bullets fly through the air their pressure is like 10-K.
ummm it ain't.

Speaking of linotype/hard bullets, mine are cast from “pure” wheel weights, powder coated and gas checked. I’ll guess now that if the accuracy sucks, I may be pushing a softer bullet too fast? I’ve never used anything harder…

 

[fiver]

probably not.
powder lets you get away with softer anyway, AND is more likely to do better with a softer alloy.

lets look at things in a different light.
i'm gonna go back to the old golf club smack, versus the tennis racket wump.
peak pressure is still XXX the key is when the peak pressure is applied.
right in the throat?
yeah, you need to take steps to protect the bullets shape, the lube needs it too.
move the pressure down to a point when the bullet is just getting forced forward so the only thing your really fighting is some nose slump due to acceleration forces trying to push the base into it.
move that same XXX pressure forward a bit more and the acceleration effect is becoming less stressful on the bullet and even less since the push is just there longer and longer.
IOW a more gradual increase and longer push over distance.

 

[RBHarter]

Sort of like the 15 second 1/4 mile cars ?
The first car gets it all out of hole doing 60 at the 1/16 and 75 at the 1/8 and its topped out
The second takes to the 1/8 to get 60 but breaks the 1/4 lights at 90 .
The 3rd car is only good for 45 at the 1/8 but breaks out at 120 at the 1/4 .
Elapse time is only 15 seconds for a 60 mph 1/4 and side by side there's going to be inches at the line .

Same deal inside the barrel . You can get to peak velocity in 3",6" , or 12" but it's still only xxxx at the muzzle .

 

[BBerguson]

I should know tomorrow. I loaded 9 rounds, three 3 shot groups. That’s enough to tell me if they won’t group.

Brass has been annealed and I’m belling the mouth as little as possible. Neck tension is consistent and tight and then I’m crimping with a Lee FCD.

I don’t have the mold anymore, it‘s a buddies mold and it’s back home with him. It’s a NOE HTC 310-225-RN-CE4
Not sure why they call it a round nose, maybe because it’s not a “ballistic tip” but like a Sierra spItzer. The BC on it has to pretty high, it’s a long bullet.

 

[BBerguson]

Not only did they all go bang but I shot two good groups at 100 yards. I shot 3 at 200 just to see the amount of drop and they were about 10 inches lower than the 100 yard groups. First group was 1.25” and second was 1”. These are the best groups I’ve ever had with cast bullets in a rifle so I’m pretty excited! Much slower than I thought they would be running right around 1800 fps but I’m very satisfied with the groups and they all went bang with no hesitation at all.

 

[fiver]

Sort of like the 15 second 1/4 mile cars ?
The first car gets it all out of hole doing 60 at the 1/16 and 75 at the 1/8 and its topped out
The second takes to the 1/8 to get 60 but breaks the 1/4 lights at 90 .
The 3rd car is only good for 45 at the 1/8 but breaks out at 120 at the 1/4 .
Elapse time is only 15 seconds for a 60 mph 1/4 and side by side there's going to be inches at the line .

Same deal inside the barrel . You can get to peak velocity in 3",6" , or 12" but it's still only xxxx at the muzzle .

yep, just like the 440 versus 426 argument.
grunt and groan versus a wound up rpm monster.

only we're talking peak pressure and not peak velocity because like you said one dude is just pushing most all the way once he gets started.
but the analogy is pretty spot on to when i say when is the bullet, or when is the pressure.
control how much for how long and you can manipulate it to work with pretty much any strength alloy you got to use.
little softer little harder put a little less in.
just like the manipulation of the clutch pack on a dragster, both are trying to keep the tires from spinning [stripping or slumping] right at the line and again when the 1st. hard shift hits at 60 foot.
we also deal with pressure let-off or the relaxation point on the base of the bullet somewhere down the line.
maybe 8"s in, maybe 8"s outside the barrel, but it's in there somewhere too.

 

[fiver]

Not only did they all go bang but I shot two good groups at 100 yards. I shot 3 at 200 just to see the amount of drop and they were about 10 inches lower than the 100 yard groups. First group was 1.25” and second was 1”. These are the best groups I’ve ever had with cast bullets in a rifle so I’m pretty excited! Much slower than I thought they would be running right around 1800 fps but I’m very satisfied with the groups and they all went bang with no hesitation at all.

see.
take care of the bullet all the way from the mold to the paper and you get good results.

that's kind of why i get upset when guys say meh close nuff when their castings are poor.
he knows he can do better, heck i know he can do better and i've never met the guy, but he's happy,, whatever,,, jus me, but that's not how things work.

 

[BBerguson]

Low of 1789, high of 1917, avg - 1846, SD - 44. These are sized to .309 - only one I have in 30 cal. Would like to try .310 maybe .311. Going to see if any of my local shooting buddies have one.

I think this would lower the SD and raise the velocity and maybe with better accuracy.

 

[CZ93X62]

1" to 1.25" at 100 is pretty darn good work with castings. 1700-1900 FPS has been a real sweet spot for me in my cast rifles.

 

[fiver]

try a hotter primer.
a better ignition can take some of the up and down out of the group.

 

[BBerguson]

I’m using a CCI LRM, is there a hotter brand?

 

[CZ93X62]

Federal #215 are supposed to lead the league in brisance. Those are what I use to prompt WC-860 into behaving properly (50 BMG milsurp ball powder).

 

[fiver]

Winchesters magnums are pretty hot too, they are a different formula than the Federals are, so worth a shot if you have some kicking around.
i've had them push a semi-meh sedate load over the edge in the heat in some instances.

 

[BBerguson]

I just checked and only have CCI’s, three different “vintages/boxes” but all CCI. I’ll have to start looking.

 

[BBerguson]

I’ve been unsuccessful in my hunt for any LRM primer, they just don’t exist for sale anywhere! So, I did the next best thing, I added powder. Bumped the charge up to 42gr and 43 gr and was able to get chronograph readings today.

42gr, 1879, 1870, 1844, 1919, 1918. Mean - 1886 SD - 32, group of 1.58”
43gr. 1873, 1948, 1993,1949. Mean - 1965. SD - 21, group of 1.2”. (Only 4 rounds left from my previous testing)

Increasing the powder charge is allowing this slow powder to do what it does best, build velocity in the barrel and burn more consistently. SD dropped by 11 and Mean rose by 79. I have some 200 yard targets somewhere from a couple of weeks ago that I haven’t measured but the groups were significantly tighter with 43gr loads. (It was a clear sky that day and the chrony didn’t give me a single reading)

I‘m curious to try some heavier charges but I don’t have the primers to spare for that kind of testing right now. It will have to wait until I obtain more and maybe I’ll even score some Winchester primers…

I think I’m more excited about deer season than I‘ve been in 20 years!