Lee 309-113 in a 30-30?

Barra

Member
Sounds wrong , but if you want low then load it down till you stick one in the bore then add a grain and go up from there.
Wouldn’t a soft lube be better than a hard coat.
Never tried baking or jacketed .
I believe a dirty bore is your friend here.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
the powder coat is probably slippery enough.

i remember waay back when [Bret might remember it too] on the boolits board we were being stupid trying to see just how slow we could pook a bullet out of a rifle barrel.
i got down to @ 450 fps with my 223 and promptly stuck a bullet trying to go a bit slower.
i ended up adding graphite and motor mica to cooked off JPW and tumble lubing to get down about another 20 or so fps without sticking a bullet.
couldn't hit anything with that 12 twist bolt gun, but the bullets made it out the barrel and that's all i cared about at the time.

it's kind of funny how the extremes start to present all sorts of problems that you have to think your way through.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I recall the idea but not the specifics. I can get down in the 600 fps range with good accuracy in some guns. Smaller cases make it easier, so a 32 S+W is a snapper. But the load that does 550-600 in a revolver might do 800 in a rifle!!!
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
I did a fair amount of experimentation with such "cat-sneeze" loads and have used them to good effect around the house, in the middle of the night, without shaking the neighbors awake - or even those inside the house a mere 16 feet or so away, with no more than an insulated steel door between me and the sleeping beauties.

I worked mostly with the 222, using 50 gr. RFNs; the 30/30, using mostly the Lee 170 grain RFN and RCBS 98 grain SWC meant for the 32 pistols; the 357 Mag using several 158 through 200 gr. bullets. The 357 turned out to work the best for me, yielding the best combination of accuracy, "smack" and quietness. The LEE TL358158SWC was a hoot and busted three or four raccoons one night, in three quick, consecutive shots, who were tearing up bird feeders, breaking bird baths, making a mess on the porch and trying to get into the house. A big, old woodchuck fixing to make a home undr my back porch left by means of an almost pure lead 358429 HP, and various other raiding raccoons have been sent on their way using various other bullets from the 357, loping along at something like 450 to 500 fps.

These loads are surprisingly effective, after years of thinking the 22 LR was "enough," but it almost never was unless it was specifically a head-shot, which is not always possible. THEN, they flop and flail and blood goes everywhere. Gory and a pain in the butt to hook up a hose at 2 AM st near freezing to clean things up. Not the most delightful of visions, but necessity dictates that when there are not enough natural predators, these little buggers get bold and even mean. They become a danger to chickens and small pets - even humans.

To arrive at the "right" load, it's desirable to work DOWN, until you stick a bullet in the barrel, and then work back up, watching for 100% reliability in exiting the bore. Different guns will respond very differently to different powder charge levels too. I tight, .355" grooved Rossi 92 was took the lowest charge and was the quietest. The Ruger 77/357 required too much powder to be quiet enough and wasn't as accurate. H&R Handi-Rifles were reliably accurate and quiet as well, but the Rossi took the cake. Currently, a .358" grooved MGM 357 Contender Carbine barrel requires a very slightly higher charge than the Rossi, but is even more accurate. I typically "sight" these at ten yards, because that's about as far as the typical shot is - usually less.

Now that I have a full-wadcutter (148 grain) again, I'll have to experiment a bit with that. I had focused on mostly heavier bullets to assist with momentum, but I've not found it to make a notable difference in accuracy, noise or decisiveness in discretely dispatching night-time raiders. Straight wheel-weights, 50/50 wheel-weights and pure lead, or even 1:3 wheel-weights and pure lead all work fine, but the widest nse possible makes a difference in effectiveness. None of these have exited their target except for head shots, which sort of leave nothing to exit.

The 30/30 is no slouch in this function, but I just focused more on the 357 because I use it more and the case is much smaller.
 

Dimner

Named Man
- or even those inside the house a mere 16 feet or so away, with no more than an insulated steel door between me and the sleeping beauties

So let's talk a quick sec about muzzle noise. Obviously a lower pressure load makes less noise, but is there any benefit to different a specific powder burn rate that helps reduce noise?
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
So let's talk a quick sec about muzzle noise. Obviously a lower pressure load makes less noise, but is there any benefit to different a specific powder burn rate that helps reduce noise?
Unique and W231/HP38 in my case, but @Outpost75 prefers Bullseye.

He is more right (and much more experienced) than I am, as Bullseye will use itself up quicker, but I have made a project of seeing what all I can do with Unique.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I've always thought BE gave the quietest reports when loaded down in a rifle, but that's pretty subjective on my part. How do you judge a "ploop" being louder or quieter than another load that sounds similar? I have shot oads where the hammer fall seemed louder than the muzzle report and the lead hitting the target, usually a tree or hunk of wood, was louder yet. Definitely quieter than an air rifle.
 

Dimner

Named Man
I'll have to give that a try. I was able to buy 1pb of bullseye before the panic. Maybe I'll try them out with my 77g RCBS 32 cal bullets sized down and powder coated. Unless you guys think heavier is quieter.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
I'll have to give that a try. I was able to buy 1pb of bullseye before the panic. Maybe I'll try them out with my 77g RCBS 32 cal bullets sized down and powder coated. Unless you guys think heavier is quieter.
You'll get more than a couple thousand rounds out of that pound of Bullseye shooting loads like this. Even book minimum loads are pretty quiet and very frugal.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
I'll have to give that a try. I was able to buy 1pb of bullseye before the panic. Maybe I'll try them out with my 77g RCBS 32 cal bullets sized down and powder coated. Unless you guys think heavier is quieter.

From what I've done with these loads, I found the inertia of heavier bullets seemed to help with a more efficient/consistent burn of the powder. Unique and W231 do both leave a lot of debris in the barrel either way though.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
Unique has a habit of only burning 97-98% even in the best scenarios.
it will almost always still be trying at the muzzle.

fast powders that peak and drop off quickly should have the lower muzzle pressure.
bulls-eye, clay's, titegroup, red-dot.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio

I'm finding a lot of dead links in my "Favorites" folder, but I have at least these for anyone interested. I would suggest anyone pursuing this endeavor do as much reading as possible first.

Sticking a bullet in a barrel can be a dangerous thing, but is very possible. The beak-open single-shots are a real advantage here, as you have ample opportunity to inspect the bore after EVERY shot. I personally would not do these loads with jacketed bullets, because they are NOT fun to unstick.

I think t he bullet/cartridge case in the thread title would be a really good combination for this endeavor. Wish I'd had some of this bullet loaded up for today, when my son in law came over to shoot. He did get to shoot the 30/30 with the 165 grain RDO at 1200 (or so) fps and had five making one hole at fifty yards. We'd been shooting his suppressed 300 BLK at $1.25/round and I handed him five 30/30s and told him "I'm trusting you with twenty cents'-worth of ammo here - expend it wisely." He got a chuckle out of that.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I'll have to give that a try. I was able to buy 1pb of bullseye before the panic. Maybe I'll try them out with my 77g RCBS 32 cal bullets sized down and powder coated. Unless you guys think heavier is quieter.
This is where I always wanted to try one of those chamber adapters that allowed you to use something like a 32 S+W Long in a 30-30/308. IF (!!!) they were accurate you could do the 1.0 gr BE or RD type thing with a little PB cast jobby and get 7000 rounds per pound!!! Of course primers are the hard part these days...

The little Remington #4 and #6 I have in 32 S+W Long/32 +W respectively are great for these type loads. And yeah, you really should look through the barrel with the light loads if you don't hear/see the bullet hit. BT/DT.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
This is where I always wanted to try one of those chamber adapters that allowed you to use something like a 32 S+W Long in a 30-30/308. IF (!!!) they were accurate you could do the 1.0 gr BE or RD type thing with a little PB cast jobby and get 7000 rounds per pound!!! Of course primers are the hard part these days...

The little Remington #4 and #6 I have in 32 S+W Long/32 +W respectively are great for these type loads. And yeah, you really should look through the barrel with the light loads if you don't hear/see the bullet hit. BT/DT.
The tiny case offers a huge advantage in this respect. The 30/30 case IS large, but others are even larger, so it's a compromise one makes one's call on.

The little 300 BLK case gets into more desirable capacity for this trick, but come up short (compared to the 30/30) on the other end.

So, a fella could sort this all out in his head a million times, end up ordering a Contender barrel in 32 ACP and feel like he's got the world by the berries - rightfully so, even. That would be a dandy small game/pest/fun rifle! Wandering back toward the goal of making this happen with a legitimate "deer rifle" drags us back into a whole 'nuther type of fun - making do, choosing a balance of compromise, etc.

So many different interesting and fun ways to go with this, but bottom line - every shot still requires a PRIMER.

Seven THOUSAND rounds out of a can of Bullseye still ends up costing $525 to $700 in PRIMERS.:embarrassed:
 

300BLK

Well-Known Member
Roundballs in the 30-30 can be made to shoot nickel sized groups at 25 yards with a couple of grains of fast powder like BE, RD, or Clays, and they don't exit groundhogs at 15-20 yards. Light conicals will increase the distance with accuracy to at least 50 yards with these 32RF emulating loads. Add more powder and you're into 32-20 territory.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Seems like someone over there tinkered with filled and drilled cases to reduce capacity. At least it was written as if they had tried it fill a case to the neck with Cerro bend if you happen to have a bunch but contaminated lead would work too . Waste not ? Then as long as the primer flash will make the jump you could reduce some mismatched undesirable cases down to whatever with a 1/16" flash hole and a 5/16 brad point drill and a few tired cases a 300 RUM could be reduced to 32 ACP to 327 . Even a full snort 32 long would be pretty quiet in a 26" barrel . Even if you annealed the case getting it filled it'd still be safe with a 327 , heck even a 30-30 load in a 300 WM . Cerro cast is the sister to Cerro safe both pour under 300° . I did make an effort to turn an 06' case but the tools weren't up to the task . The operator may not have had a clue either .....
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Roundballs in the 30-30 can be made to shoot nickel sized groups at 25 yards with a couple of grains of fast powder like BE, RD, or Clays, and they don't exit groundhogs at 15-20 yards. Light conicals will increase the distance with accuracy to at least 50 yards with these 32RF emulating loads. Add more powder and you're into 32-20 territory.

I've never had as much luck, accuracy-wise with RBs, so I never mention them. I know they've done good service for others, so I'm not sure what the difference is. Part of that may be my limited experience, based on having abandoned them early on and not doing further experimentation. I did try them in the 300 BLK, which I shot like a 32-20, with cast only from a 16" carbine. It's really a neat little case for messing around with cast, both within and outside of its originally assigned purpose.

RBs ARE easier to seat - and without tools - using your thumb and maintaining a consistent seating depth by pressing the partially-seated ball against a board or bench-top until the case mouth registers on the chosen surface. Depending on the neck expansion for a given brand of brass/extant chamber dimensions, you can sometimes do this withouit sizing brass or ball, which gets into a whole other avenue of fun - seeing just how much you can do with how little.

I have a one-pint maple syrup jug full of .310" shot I've save to maybe try these again some day, as I have not tried them in my current 30/30 barrel.
 

Barra

Member
Here a picture of a average 100 yard group with the soupcan in the 7.62x33r (30-357) bullseye load on the week-end in the afternoon.
Some days when I get it together they are a bit tighter with the open sights. 1/12"

C5174505-407C-4ECE-A463-718F4AA997D2.jpeg
The 30-30 is around 1 1/2" with A scope usually.
Probably good enough for ear holes at 50 yards. Body shots on wabbits at 100yrds.
 
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