Light or Heavy
- Thread starter Ben
- Start date
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
To be a defensive handgun, it has to be with you ALWAYS. So while I would prefer to have my Model 25 S&W, in reality I carry the S&W 331 or the Colt Cobra. While I would run, hide, avoid at all costs (at least that an old man can do) a shooting situation. Wait until they get close, and shoot to kill. Shooting to stop is not the first priority. So practice with the small one even though the big one is better. You are not paid to bring home extra ammo, use it.
A Tokarov with 86 grain bullets at 1750 f/s is great if you need to shoot through "body armor", but a .40+ and 750 f/s+ will solve any problems you can fix with a handgun.
A Tokarov with 86 grain bullets at 1750 f/s is great if you need to shoot through "body armor", but a .40+ and 750 f/s+ will solve any problems you can fix with a handgun.
RBHarter
West Central AR
My choice until recently was the best of both , on a souly mechanical basis , was a 40 S&W .
Big fat flat TC,SWC or RNFP of .250+ and 170-180gr , 900-1000 fps.
Now back with a 9mm I've selected 130 gr Hyshock type HP or a 130 RNFP at .250 meplat . These run near 1100 in 3" Hi Power .
Next is a 38 +P of 125 HP or 158 SP at 950 and 900 .
Ms has a 380 95 gr HP .
I guess I'm firmly planted in the nominally heavy moderate speed camp if it will apex use it .
Big fat flat TC,SWC or RNFP of .250+ and 170-180gr , 900-1000 fps.
Now back with a 9mm I've selected 130 gr Hyshock type HP or a 130 RNFP at .250 meplat . These run near 1100 in 3" Hi Power .
Next is a 38 +P of 125 HP or 158 SP at 950 and 900 .
Ms has a 380 95 gr HP .
I guess I'm firmly planted in the nominally heavy moderate speed camp if it will apex use it .
Rally Hess
Well-Known Member
In 1982 or 83, a soldier assigned to Ft. Hood, Tx. shot his wife in the parkinglot of a school, infront of their two children. The Harker Heights Pd responded, ended up shooting alot of rounds, and managed to hit the man 5 times. Three in the torso, one right leg and one in the left arm. Two days later I was sent to Darnell Army hospital to get a statement from him, because the hospital was in my patrol area. Ofcourse he refused, but was sitting up in bed and able to check the no box and sign his name. HH Pd were using S&W 686's with 110 gr, SJHP's at the time. That made quite an impression on my thinking towards light and fast. I tend to think two holes and heavy for caliber is the way to go, man or animal.
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freebullet
Guest
They both work. The trouble is concealment, ability to conceal/carry the load, & have accuracy.
For self defense I'd prefer armour and a shotgun or autoloading rifle but, the reality of my life means I need something that can go in a pocket or waistband & not be "made" EVER while doing physical work & activities.
Guns that small are tough to shoot in big bore calibers. To maintain accuracy (being able to keep all shots in a 2x3" box to at least 21 feet & an 8" circle at 15yd), conceal, & not be worn out physically just by carrying leaves you with ideal solutions of 9mm, 380, 38 spcl, & similar.
I personally prefer hollow points and have complete penetration with them in the above mentioned calibers.
That buck there had an arrow sticking out of him. He jumped up to standing from a thicket and lowered his head at my friend & his son, only 10' away. We were Turkey hunting with his son. The boy had the only shotgun loaded with #4 & a single shot. I took a few quick stumble steps to the side while drawing my p238 from my pocket loaded with remington 90 gr hp's and my buddy drew his knife (the only weapon he had). I fired two shots quartering towards & big boy dropped. Both shots hit him. Only the jacket from one was found in the exit side hide. The rest penetrated completely somewhat diagonally.
It was so close & it happened so fast I felt like the boy was in serious danger & did all I knew to.
A 90gr HP at 1k is not a friendly punch. The exit holes were 40 cal +. Typical self defense distances for civilians is inside 21'. That's fortunately, the only man sized thing I've felt as if I had to shoot in defense of my self or others. Would have prefered a vaporizer Ray gun in my hand when that buck lowered his head at them, when he took his step I fired what I had.
At that point I wasn't shooting to kill. I was shooting to stop the threat to the young boy & my friend. Anything more than stopping the threat is pre-meditation in the eyes of the law.
When I went to front sight they trained us to put two shots in the thoracic cavity. If that doesn't stop the threat you would need to be able to perform a fail to stop drill. One well placed shot up top. Don't know if I could have made that shot had he taken a second step their way but, that's where my sights went.
They say a man can cover 21' in 1.5 seconds. Can you draw from concealment and fire 2 where they need to be in that much time. If not your got. Drawing from concealment and shooting at timed turning targets is a bit different than something alive but, I'm glad we do it and feel like it made me more capable that day.
In self defense how you handle the gun matters quite a bit. As with anything the Devils in the details.
For self defense I'd prefer armour and a shotgun or autoloading rifle but, the reality of my life means I need something that can go in a pocket or waistband & not be "made" EVER while doing physical work & activities.
Guns that small are tough to shoot in big bore calibers. To maintain accuracy (being able to keep all shots in a 2x3" box to at least 21 feet & an 8" circle at 15yd), conceal, & not be worn out physically just by carrying leaves you with ideal solutions of 9mm, 380, 38 spcl, & similar.
I personally prefer hollow points and have complete penetration with them in the above mentioned calibers.
That buck there had an arrow sticking out of him. He jumped up to standing from a thicket and lowered his head at my friend & his son, only 10' away. We were Turkey hunting with his son. The boy had the only shotgun loaded with #4 & a single shot. I took a few quick stumble steps to the side while drawing my p238 from my pocket loaded with remington 90 gr hp's and my buddy drew his knife (the only weapon he had). I fired two shots quartering towards & big boy dropped. Both shots hit him. Only the jacket from one was found in the exit side hide. The rest penetrated completely somewhat diagonally.
It was so close & it happened so fast I felt like the boy was in serious danger & did all I knew to.
A 90gr HP at 1k is not a friendly punch. The exit holes were 40 cal +. Typical self defense distances for civilians is inside 21'. That's fortunately, the only man sized thing I've felt as if I had to shoot in defense of my self or others. Would have prefered a vaporizer Ray gun in my hand when that buck lowered his head at them, when he took his step I fired what I had.
At that point I wasn't shooting to kill. I was shooting to stop the threat to the young boy & my friend. Anything more than stopping the threat is pre-meditation in the eyes of the law.
When I went to front sight they trained us to put two shots in the thoracic cavity. If that doesn't stop the threat you would need to be able to perform a fail to stop drill. One well placed shot up top. Don't know if I could have made that shot had he taken a second step their way but, that's where my sights went.
They say a man can cover 21' in 1.5 seconds. Can you draw from concealment and fire 2 where they need to be in that much time. If not your got. Drawing from concealment and shooting at timed turning targets is a bit different than something alive but, I'm glad we do it and feel like it made me more capable that day.
In self defense how you handle the gun matters quite a bit. As with anything the Devils in the details.
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Kinda what I thought. I use a 135gr in 9, 165 in 40, both TC style. I realy like WST in the compact 9 as 'snap' is very repeatable so I can get back on target faster. One reason I'm tinkering with the soft Pb/Cu alloy. So far it shoots good, hoping it stays together and expands good. Always heard the 22 short was the worst killer as it bounces around and really tears things up. But not a knockdown punch. If you don't hit a vital, you'll just hurt them, not stop them. Druggies and drunks are the worst cause their pain sense is already dulled. I guess I'm in the moderate heavy and slow crowd - but fast & heavy is OK too.
RBHarter
West Central AR
I think the HP flaw in the 40 is in the bullets being over built . A little bit like a mag XTP for a 454 or 460 in an ACP or Colts . It is an odd cal with only 3-4 cartridges it doesn't make sense to build an HP for 650-900 and 850-1200 fps so we get 175 for 850 to 1200 that doesn't work in the 40 or the 38-40 but is good in 10mm.
Missionary
Well-Known Member
Greetings
I am sold on heavy and fat. Talked to too many Army personal that had nothing good to say about fast light bullets in handguns. From MP's to infantry to armor personal no one wanted a 9mm. Everyone wanted the 45 ACP with at least 230 grainers.
Shooting ground hogs with the 32-20 found the same issue. Only 115 grainers gave reliable 100% both shoulders broken or complete head exit wounds.
Deer ... had to help track far too many white tails well popped with under 180 grainers that never exited. In 41 mag 240 grains and I prefer 265 grains. 45 colt is far better with 260 grains and heavier.
In my CC revolvers they get loaded with at least a 160 grain WC in 38 Special. In the 44 Special 2-3 inch barrel they carry at least a 240 grain WC at 850-900 fps.
I have complete confidence these will get the job done no matter how huge the target is. plus I have no inabition to shoot the target often. Like the old sarge told us tankers often.. Keep shooting till it catches fire. Ammo is cheap.
Mike in Peru
I am sold on heavy and fat. Talked to too many Army personal that had nothing good to say about fast light bullets in handguns. From MP's to infantry to armor personal no one wanted a 9mm. Everyone wanted the 45 ACP with at least 230 grainers.
Shooting ground hogs with the 32-20 found the same issue. Only 115 grainers gave reliable 100% both shoulders broken or complete head exit wounds.
Deer ... had to help track far too many white tails well popped with under 180 grainers that never exited. In 41 mag 240 grains and I prefer 265 grains. 45 colt is far better with 260 grains and heavier.
In my CC revolvers they get loaded with at least a 160 grain WC in 38 Special. In the 44 Special 2-3 inch barrel they carry at least a 240 grain WC at 850-900 fps.
I have complete confidence these will get the job done no matter how huge the target is. plus I have no inabition to shoot the target often. Like the old sarge told us tankers often.. Keep shooting till it catches fire. Ammo is cheap.
Mike in Peru
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freebullet
Guest
People don't live after getting shot with a 40 s&w around here mostly, Cuz the cops dump the whole mag from several Glocks when it gets to that point.
The 40 presents some pretty impressive #'s with light 135's pushed hard. I dunno.
The 40 presents some pretty impressive #'s with light 135's pushed hard. I dunno.
Will
Well-Known Member
I'm in the heavy group. My CCW is a glock 30 loaded with 230gr gold dots or Federal HST's. I load it with 230gr flat nosed cast bullet when around the house or farm.
By my bedside the fnx45 stays loaded with 230gr XTP's.
I've killed several deer with 45 acp. I know many people say it's not humane to hunt with, but I have yet to see a deer make it over 30yds when using a 230gr bullet.
I am slowly moving into the 9mm world. My wife carries a glock 43 loaded with 124gr gold dots. And her bedside gun is a m&p 9mm. I actually just ordered 9mm dies and bullets today. I really hate the cost of gearing up to load a new caliber.
By my bedside the fnx45 stays loaded with 230gr XTP's.
I've killed several deer with 45 acp. I know many people say it's not humane to hunt with, but I have yet to see a deer make it over 30yds when using a 230gr bullet.
I am slowly moving into the 9mm world. My wife carries a glock 43 loaded with 124gr gold dots. And her bedside gun is a m&p 9mm. I actually just ordered 9mm dies and bullets today. I really hate the cost of gearing up to load a new caliber.