Light or Heavy

[Pistolero]

I carry a .45 ACP with 230 gr Gold Dots. That should explain my view of the
issue.

Loved the Tom Cruise clip!
After decades of IPSC, I still enjoy a well trained man with a handgun doing
what handguns were intended to do. I always figured that if an up to speed and
current IPSC guy ever did get into a straight up gunfight it would be EXTREMELY
short.

Here is another example of superb gunhandling. Zubiena was legendary in the
IPSC community when he filmed this sequence. The original scene from Miami
Vice is embedded in this clip, plus they put a timer on it. Zubiena was playing a hit
man who had just wiped out a car full of bad guys with a Spas shotgun, and was
caught at gunpoint by the one bodyguard who went to the john while the deed
was done.

1.38 seconds for a draw and Mozambique (two in the body, one in the head).

Here is the reenactment by Jim Z. later, using a Mini14 to stand in for the Spas and
with a target to be scored. He was the real deal.

Bill

 

[fiver]

you know if Tom would have kicked that last case back over with the others...

 

[Pistolero]

Looking at the medical video - the one which barely penetrated the sternum was a .40 Short & Weak, and those
things come in weights down to 135 gr and a whole lot of 155 gr. IMO, the 135 for sure, and even the 155 gr
is very light for caliber, and when you are smashing through bone, things revert back to basic physics and
you need a certain quantity of momentum, weight times velocity.

This is exactly why I would never carry the 185 gr .45 ACP ammo, same issue as the 155 or worse with 135 .40 cal,
too light for caliber to penetrate bone well. With .45 ACP, the 230 gr is 25% heavier, so better penetration.

Always keep in mind that pistols are weak, at least up until you get to the .460 Mag and stuff from the X frame
Smiths, and you will need good hits and more than one.

That said, Brett's point about any gun being better than no gun is an excellent one. A bunch of quick, accurate
hits with a .22 LR can be very effective, and certainly is far ahead of swearing and throwing a flower pot.

Always keep in mind that if you have any inkling that you are about to get in a gunfight - leaving is a really great
strategy. If that isn't workable, grab a long gun if you can. Long guns are REAL fighting tools, handguns are
emergency equipment only. Or as Clint Smith says, "Handguns are for fighting your way back to the rifle that you
never should have put down in the first place."

Bill

 

[shootnlead]

Looking at the medical video - the one which barely penetrated the sternum was a .40 Short & Weak, and those
things come in weights down to 135 gr and a whole lot of 155 gr. IMO, the 135 for sure, and even the 155 gr
is very light for caliber, and when you are smashing through bone, things revert back to basic physics and
you need a certain quantity of momentum, weight times velocity.

This is exactly why I would never carry the 185 gr .45 ACP ammo, same issue as the 155 or worse with 135 .40 cal,
too light for caliber to penetrate bone well. With .45 ACP, the 230 gr is 25% heavier, so better penetration.

Always keep in mind that pistols are weak, at least up until you get to the .460 Mag and stuff from the X frame
Smiths, and you will need good hits and more than one.

That said, Brett's point about any gun being better than no gun is an excellent one. A bunch of quick, accurate
hits with a .22 LR can be very effective, and certainly is far ahead of swearing and throwing a flower pot.

Always keep in mind that if you have any inkling that you are about to get in a gunfight - leaving is a really great
strategy. If that isn't workable, grab a long gun if you can. Long guns are REAL fighting tools, handguns are
emergency equipment only. Or as Clint Smith says, "Handguns are for fighting your way back to the rifle that you
never should have put down in the first place."

Bill

If I even suspect something is not right, I am on my way to being out of there.

But, the long gun thing...is really not a workable solution for most of our likely self defense situations, if we are away from home. Now, I am not sure if we are more likely to have to defend ourselves at home or in another location. I do know that it is very unlikely that any of us will ever have to defend ourselves, anywhere. There are the times that just having a gun, can make the difference. I have had 2 of those times...it was 2 potential perps and me...both times, and both times, they smelled a rat or suspected that I was armed and chose to move on. But, on one of those occasions, one of those guys was VERY, VERY close to being shot...just a breathe away. Thankfully, both times worked out well...and validated my insistence on always being armed. I have been carrying a gun since I was 18yrs old...1978...one of these situations happened in Dec of 1996 and the other happened in April of 1997...still very fresh in my mind...I can still call up a remnant of that adrenalin and anxiety that I felt,...in about 1 second.

 

[smokeywolf]

I've always had more confidence in heavier and of course slower projectiles.

Eons ago, when in law enforcement, if I was working in uniform I carried the 1911 on my hip and a North American Arms stainless 5 shot in 22LR in a pocket stitched into the throat of my Wellington boots. If I was working plain clothes I wore the 1911 in a shoulder holster and a Colt 38 DS on my hip.
Also carried three spare handcuff keys. One with the little NA 22 in my boot pocket and two in pockets stitched into the inside front and rear of my pants belt.

In SoCal, unless you have the right connections, securing a CCW permit is about as likely as pulling a winning lottery ticket.

Everyone in the family carries pepper spray (except at school). I preach situational awareness almost daily. If we're in a restaurant, store, office building, etc. I always ask the Mrs. and/or kids, "Where are the entrances and exits?", "Where should you be sitting?", "Have you assessed possible escape routes?". They all know that stores, restaurants and particularly, gas station/convenience marts and banks that are located close to freeway on-ramps are higher probability targets.

 

[Rick]

In SoCal, unless you have the right connections, securing a CCW permit is about as likely as pulling a winning lottery ticket.

Ya think huh? The Chief of the Los Angeles Police Dept was denied a CCW.
.

 

[freebullet]

Nice vintage vids, Bill.

That is part of the point I was trying to make. In most self defense situations the threat is right near you. The key would be being armed & trained/practiced well enough to do what's necessary, in the time frame most social self defense situations occur. Caliber matters much less than ability imo.

Not running around in condition white is a good start. Seeing the trouble in advance buys time.

The easiest & safest way to win a gun fight is not being in one.