Luger .45 N°5?

nueces5

New Member
It came out in a newspaper in Argentina today, not very big but believable.
If I read the title, the first thing I think is that it is a lie.
But some data is very specific, and it made me doubt, that's why I post it.
In Spanish. They will have to use the translator.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
There WERE a number of .45 Lugers built for the US trials, and I don't think it has been at all
well established what happened to them afterwards.

There are modern repros, too.

Bill
 

Ian

Notorious member
I live in south Texas, my Spanish translator is built-in. :) That's a terrible story, I hope someday "Hitler's Luger" surfaces again.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Here is an online translation of the first part. I haven't read all of it yet. The translator limited it to 5000 words.

Seems to be doing an amazingly reasonable job of translating. The bold faced part is the interesting part.

*********************

"The eye-catching records circulate from one office to another in the Functional Instruction Unit (UFI) No. 1 of the Judicial Department of Azul, province of Buenos Aires. They may be a few more among the thousands based in the different courts of the country, but on the streets of the same there is a name that undoubtedly makes them different from all the others. Moreover, because of that famous proper name the documentation analyzed in the judicial headquarters is exceptional and the data contained therein have unpublished connotations that are otherwise surprising. And that name is Adolf Hitler.

The main actor in the court-related courts related to this procedure, which has resulted in criminal court cases and in a lawsuit for damages against the provincial state, is the Argentine Juan Pablo Ruppel. The man, who works repairing appliances in his modest Blue trade, is the grandson of German commander Hans Ruppel. It is not a minor in this incredible story, since the aforementioned was one of the selected members of the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler, an elite formation of the Waffen-SS initially formed as an armed personal guard to protect the Fuhrer, who it was later expanded as a special armored unit with outstanding performance in various war scenarios during World War II. John Paul's life is unique and I discovered it when I was researching Nazi activity in the country, following some disturbing clues, to write my new book entitled "Hitler's Second Life (1945-?)". During his teenage years, weary of a troubled life with his parents, the young Ruppel left his home in Buenos Aires, agreeing to be raised by his uncle Horst Schmidt, who lived in a house in Colonia Nievas, olavarría's party. Schmidt was an SS officer from the fearsome Division 3 SS Totenkopf, who assigned a large portion of his members as custodians of Nazi concentration camps.

John Paul lived with Schmidt - the German soldier was lonely and had not formed a family - between the ages of 14 and 19, becoming a kind of adoptive father of the boy. In addition to going to school, General Olavarría public No. 7 received a German-style instruction from her Uncle, especially the practice of physical exercises and weapons management, as Juan Pablo told this chronicler. Schmidt told his nephew that he (Schmidt) and Commander Hans Ruppel, John Paul's great-uncle, after fighting in World War II escaped Europe by submarine, landing clandestinely on an Argentine beach. If this was astonishing, he added a more unusual fact: Hitler and Eva Braun had traveled in the same U-Boot that Ruppel did, he told him, had the function of caring for the maximum Nazi chief during his exile in Argentina.
Relatives. John Paul Ruppel and his uncle, the SS Horst Schmidt."

This account of the survival of the leader of National Socialism, strongly questioned by academic historians who claim that the Fuhrer shot himself in his Berlin bunker on April 30, 1945, was assimilated by John Paul as a true data unquestionable, as he was raised with that version periodically fed by the data told him by Horst Schmidt (died 2014), nicknamed "the long one" because it was almost two meters high. As if that were not enough, Commander Ruppel himself confirmed that version to his young relative. In this regard, in dialogue with Financial Scope, John Paul recalled that he saw his great-uncle only three times in his life. The first as a teenager and the Man of the Leibstandarte went to visit sS Horst Schmidt, who was the nephew of the German commander, in 1994. At that time, It seems that Hans Ruppel had admiration for the young man in knowing his good performance in the tasks assigned to him. "I had the key to the school and the church because I was very responsible and he liked it very much," Juan Pablo Ruppel told me when I recently interviewed him in Azul. "He also said it reminded him of a brother of his that he had stayed in Berlin," he added. On that fleeting visit Commander Hans Ruppel and SS Horst Schmidt spoke for hours, but young John Paul did not participate in those talks. Nothing told him, nothing asked.

The years passed and only in 2012 Commander Hans Ruppel, now old, reappeared in his life. By then Juan Pablo was 33 years old, married and had set up a business to repair appliances in Azul. "He came in a Mercedes Benz with a chauffeur, accompanied by an older lady, he said, do you remember me?, I said yes, but the truth is that I very well did not remember him because it had been several years since I had last seen him" Said. "But there I was bigger so I asked him directly, and he said yes, that he had come with Hitler on a submarine." On that occasion Hans Ruppel chatted quite a bit with his great-nephew and was also able to observe the weapons that Juan Pablo de motu himself had collected. A detail that the German military elder did not go unnoticed as you will see below.

A few months later the elder Hans reappeared but this time with an exceptional gift for his great-nephew: some of the pistols from Adolf Hitler's personal collection. In addition to explaining the origin of them he gave him a letter with the exact data of each one. He told him that Hitler had arrived with him in Argentina in 1945, and that three years later those old pistols that the Fuhrer had collected were brought. Commander Hans Ruppel assured him that after Hitler really died he became custodian of that valuable collection. He added that, because he was very old, before he died he wanted to give him some of the weapons, one of them the most expensive in the world, warning him that they all had a very high price, which is why he had to take steps to protect them from possible attempts at robberies. As you will see the time would be right for the experienced German military.
The revealing letter

In a missive signed by the Nazi officer addressed to his great-nephew, whose original is incorporated into the legal proceedings, the member of the Leibstandarte verbatim states the following:

"In 1948 they arrived in Argentina under Juan Domingo Perón part of Hitler's collection, a 45-caliber serial 05 pistol, another Parabellum pistol caliber 7.62 serial number 3858 s (see photo) that was adolf Hitler used in 1925 , as well as other pistols belonging to Joseph Goebbels, 9 mm caliber. Serial 2464 and also used in 1925. A 9 mm caliber Parabellum pistol, serial number 4808 z that belonged to Otto Skorzeny, who years later would become Eva Perón's bodyguards...", among others. The pistols quoted as a legacy were left to John Paul Ruppel. The German commander told his great-nephew that of all the most important he gave him was the "Parabellum gun caliber 45 serial number 05 which was one of the 5 that were made in 1907 for the greats of the United States. Two of them were sent there and another of them is still circling auctions for years between important collectors (valued) at more than a million dollars. This in particular was one of those left in Germany when our Fuhrer Adolf Hitler took the maximum power in August 1934. Years later, he took the 45-gauge Parabellum pistol serial number 05, which was in a private collection in Berlin and takes it to his own collection alongside several pistols of that brand that Adolf Hitler had already collected since 1925, when they reassembled the first group with Martin Bormann, Rudolf Hess, among others." The man
 
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Pistolero

Well-Known Member
The other Lugers would have value largely on their ostensible ownership, and highly questionable if any of that
could be proven.

Regardless of the story, the Luger .45 #5 is super valuable regardless of where it came from and how.

I got some good advice a long time ago about buying guns.
"A lot of guns come with a story. Listen politely, but buy the gun, not the story."

Regardless of the story, the .45 Luger is a valuable historic artifact.

Bill
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
I remember an article years ago in one of the gun comic books about a guy that built a .45 Luger by cutting apart two 9mm Lugers and welding them back together to widen the frame and mag well. I remember at the time that I thought it was expertly done and the end result was a very attractive looking firearm. I also thought about the difference in design, function, parts count, and robustness between the 1911 design in .45 ACP and the same cartridge in a Luger. They are contemporaries after all. My conclusion is that we got a better fighting weapon. The Germans got a prettier weapon.

What do you think?
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Definitely an interesting story . That would be something to come into . It's never happening for me .......

My Dad related a story about a Navy gunsmith that had a passion for the Walther PPK . He sent off to Walther asking if they made or would make one in 45 ACP . Of course they wouldn't because of design capacity of the platform and cartridge .
Al Kamode did what any self respecting gunsmith with premium tools and plenty of time and more or less unlimited materials , he made 2 PPKs in 45 ACP he kept one and mailed the other one to Walther . Never got a response from them .......
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
One online source reports that only .45 Lugers #1 and #2 were sent to the US Army for trials. #1 was seriously abused,
and most think it was discarded at the end, and #2 was returned to DWM. Two examples carrying SN 4 are said
to have been seen in collections, one carried home by a GI as a souvenir.
A "knowledgeable source" close to the DWM factory at the time said that six were made in total. So there are a number
unaccounted for. Perhaps #5 is real, although the Hitler story.....while not impossible, seems improbable.

I do know that the US trials included boiling a gun in sal ammoniac solution (strong base) apparently to remove
any and all corrosion protection oils/coatings, and then exposed to the air to rust overnight. The next day each gun
was permitted a bit of "wiping and lubrication" but only spit could be used and a rag. Then they were fired to see
if they would work. I am sure that these guns were seriously rusted and even if cleaned up would be in sad shape
after this careful maltreatment.

Bill
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I dunno about the gun, but the Hilter escape to Argentina story sounds entirely possible.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Nah, I doubt it. Too many folks saw him dead, and the Russians have had his jawbone with identifiable teeth
forever. He didn't escape anything.
 
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nueces5

New Member
In Argentina during the 1930s there were many Nazis, I have even seen photos of meetings in stadiums. It is not something that I am proud of today. But a few kilometers from where I live Adolf Eichmann was arrested. And for what is known there were many more. It is not very illogical to use a dead body (in those years, in Berlin they will probably be left over) to make it go through a hitler.
We will never know where death found that architect of so much death, nor whether Luger No. 5 existed.
But despite that, I liked the story ...
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Nah, I doubt it. Too many folks saw him dead, and the Russians have had his jawbone with identifiable teeth
forever. He didn't escape anything.

There was a just a guy identified as dead in a fire by DNA with a certainty over 98%. He showed up alive 3 or 4 months later. Just sayin'.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Well, wild, improbable stories are more fun than boring old reality, a lot of times. And every once in a
while, the wild stories turn out to be true. But, pretty rarely. No way to know for certain, so no point
in getting too worried about it one way or the other.

Usually, the simple explanation is correct, one in a thousand it is something odd and strange.

Bill
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
Lets not forget that Hitler was a very very physically sick man in 1945. Speculate away, he’s toast now and likely was toast in 1945.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Regardless of any provenance issues, I'd love to shoot a .45 Luger. Not a lot of chance of that happening,
even though they are currently in "production" here in the USA, IIRC.

Bill
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I remember what my uncle told me about the nutjob beliefs held by the Nazi fanatics he debriefed during and after WWII. Argentina took in a whole lot of war criminals, ex-Kriegsmarine, ex-Wehrmacht and ex-Luftwaffe personnel at WWII's end and thereafter--rat-line or conventional transport, but I am not prepared to believe some wingnut-Nazis' accounts of Hitler getting U-boated into the surf at Necochea. I might have been born at night, but it wasn't LAST NIGHT. Ockham's Razor.