Lyman size die
- Thread starter Brad
- Start date
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
Your die does look good. Shows what patience can accomplish. The time required to make the hole to the right size and surface finish is the main time and cost factor in producing a die. Even with the best general shop equipment such as mills and lathes making a die requires a lot of hand work. To minimize time you would need a set of reamers in virtually every diameter from about .219 to .510 or so. Many of these would have to be ground to a custom size. Also would need several taper reamers to cut the lead. After that, even if you can drill and ream the hole to within .001" of the desired size you still have to hand polish the interior. And let's not even get into heat treating.
I found out that I could use a basic CNC lathe and make quality die blanks from good quality material (1144 steel) for almost any modern sizer with a 3/16" pilot hole for $4 to $8 each and make money. I couldn't make the finished hole and pin for $25. My lathe could make the blanks every 5 to 8 minutes, but finishing the hole to size and making the pin took another 30 minutes or more.
I found out that I could use a basic CNC lathe and make quality die blanks from good quality material (1144 steel) for almost any modern sizer with a 3/16" pilot hole for $4 to $8 each and make money. I couldn't make the finished hole and pin for $25. My lathe could make the blanks every 5 to 8 minutes, but finishing the hole to size and making the pin took another 30 minutes or more.
Exactly Keith.
This is the first time I used the compound and a boring bar to cut the taper. This one is 1°, I think 2° might be better.
How Buckshot ever made money doing this I don't know.
A heat treat oven is something I look at as a future need. Then I look at it and realize it would just lead to more needs.
I got some good advice from smokeywolf on boring soft jaws to hold the work in my 3 jaw chuck. Then I realized my 3 jaw doesn't have replaceable jaws so that is out. Now I need a new chuck or just keep using the 4 jaw. The 4 jaw is slow but it also doesn't cost me 500-1000 bucks to use.
This is the first time I used the compound and a boring bar to cut the taper. This one is 1°, I think 2° might be better.
How Buckshot ever made money doing this I don't know.
A heat treat oven is something I look at as a future need. Then I look at it and realize it would just lead to more needs.
I got some good advice from smokeywolf on boring soft jaws to hold the work in my 3 jaw chuck. Then I realized my 3 jaw doesn't have replaceable jaws so that is out. Now I need a new chuck or just keep using the 4 jaw. The 4 jaw is slow but it also doesn't cost me 500-1000 bucks to use.
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
I've gotten a couple of really good deals on eBay. Bought an 8" three jaw w/replaceable jaws and integral D1-6 mounting for less than $200. Its Chinese and may not retain its concentricity as long as an $800 chuck but I use it mainly with soft jaws that I bore true each time we run a new job so that doesn't matter. What size chuck and mounting style would you need?
Heat treat ovens are nice but honestly I would never harden a bullet sizing die. A case sizing die, sure. Nickel cases, range dirt and tumbler grit almost require it. But lead alloy? I really wonder how many bullets it would take to wear out a die - way more than it would take to wear out a gun barrel with the same bullet at a much higher pressure and sliding velocity. Aren't we always bragging about how easy lead is on gun barrels compared to jacketed?
Heat treat ovens are nice but honestly I would never harden a bullet sizing die. A case sizing die, sure. Nickel cases, range dirt and tumbler grit almost require it. But lead alloy? I really wonder how many bullets it would take to wear out a die - way more than it would take to wear out a gun barrel with the same bullet at a much higher pressure and sliding velocity. Aren't we always bragging about how easy lead is on gun barrels compared to jacketed?
My lathe uses a D1-4 mount. I looked at eBay last night and it looks like there are a fair number of options out there. Like you said if I plan to largely use bored soft jaws then concentricity isn't as much of an issue. I'm looking at a 6 inch chuck. My 4 jaw is 8 inches but I don't know that I need anything that big in a 6 inch.
I agree on bullet sizers. I think Lee uses a pretty soft steel, 12L14 maybe? They lap out pretty easily. Don't here of too many people wearing them out. Heat treating them also would mean lapping to final size after heat treat and that would take a fair bit of work. No thank you.
I agree on bullet sizers. I think Lee uses a pretty soft steel, 12L14 maybe? They lap out pretty easily. Don't here of too many people wearing them out. Heat treating them also would mean lapping to final size after heat treat and that would take a fair bit of work. No thank you.
F
freebullet
Guest
My Lee 356 had near 50k pushed through & they still come out 3565 as original.
I did some looking on CB at threads on making them. A guy over there made his with no O-ring. Said the key was making the top section .722-.723 so it was a snug fit in the nut that holds the die in a Lyman 450. Mine was right at .723 and it is very snug. Time till tell if it leaks but it was sure worth a try? Saves a fair bit of work not cutting the groove to the right width and depth. Kept me from keeping to bring a narrow little tool too.
The cross holes were drilled by using a center punch to mark them on the die body. I then used a cordless drill to drill them first undersized then finished at .120. The die was not yet cut off the stock so it was held in the lathe. I turn the chuck, a 4 jaw, so one jaw is vertical. That lets me get a visual cue to keep the drill vertical in one plane. I then rotate the chuck 90° and drill the other hole. The chuck does a nice job of locating things 90° apart.
The center hole was drilled first with a 1/8 drill then cleaned up with a drill around .342 I believe. Then I reamed the hole to .355 to clean up burrs and smooth it out. Then I used a small carbine boring tool to cut the 1° lead angle and get me to .356. Some 400 emery and oil on a small split rod did the rest. Keep checking with pin gauges til I get what I want. I find that when a gauge just enters I will be at that size or .0005 over. As long as the next size doesn't go I'm good. Close as I can get and alloy changes will cause at least that much variation.
The initial body layout is simple. The cross holes aren't too bad. It is the boring and polishing of the center hole that take the time. That is probably 50% of the time spent. Polish, clean hole with patches, try a pin. Nope. Repeat. Each time using fresh emery and more oil. I use a smaller gauge first so I can track progress and sneak up on it.
The cross holes were drilled by using a center punch to mark them on the die body. I then used a cordless drill to drill them first undersized then finished at .120. The die was not yet cut off the stock so it was held in the lathe. I turn the chuck, a 4 jaw, so one jaw is vertical. That lets me get a visual cue to keep the drill vertical in one plane. I then rotate the chuck 90° and drill the other hole. The chuck does a nice job of locating things 90° apart.
The center hole was drilled first with a 1/8 drill then cleaned up with a drill around .342 I believe. Then I reamed the hole to .355 to clean up burrs and smooth it out. Then I used a small carbine boring tool to cut the 1° lead angle and get me to .356. Some 400 emery and oil on a small split rod did the rest. Keep checking with pin gauges til I get what I want. I find that when a gauge just enters I will be at that size or .0005 over. As long as the next size doesn't go I'm good. Close as I can get and alloy changes will cause at least that much variation.
The initial body layout is simple. The cross holes aren't too bad. It is the boring and polishing of the center hole that take the time. That is probably 50% of the time spent. Polish, clean hole with patches, try a pin. Nope. Repeat. Each time using fresh emery and more oil. I use a smaller gauge first so I can track progress and sneak up on it.
Maven
Well-Known Member
In the absence of an O ring or suitably sized O ring, I just wrap that portion of the die [body] with teflon tape. The heavier stuff works well and is very durable.
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
I could be wrong but I believe the original Lyman die was designed for the model 45 (or its predecessor), which used a setscrew that clamped into a retaining ring around the die body to hold it in place. No way with that arrangement that the die can be sealed without an O-ring. With the Lyman 450 and 4500 (and the RCBS LAMs) that use a nut to hold the die in place the O-ring isn't really necessary most of the time. (Neither is the retaining ring.) The seal is between the underside of the nut and the face of the die. I've got a lot of dies that have ragged or missing O-rings and don't recall any of them leaking much.
JonB
Halcyon member
The Older Lyman dies don't have an o-ring and they are a smudge larger [at the top] than the newer lyman dies that have the o-ring ...the older ones rely on mechanical fitment to seal on the old lyman/ideal lubesizer presses (45 and 1), and for the most part, my experience has been no leaking with old presses and old dies. If I were to guess, I'd think Lyman updated the die design to incorporate the o-ring to make it easier to manufacture (looser specs) and also for better die to ram alignment.
that's my 2¢
that's my 2¢
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
That makes a lot of sense. I don't have any really old Lyman dies to check, all of mine have O-ring grooves. The ones with missing O-rings don't leak in my old 450 but do leak when used in my BIL's 45.
Manufacturer's are always looking for ways to broaden tolerances without losing performance, guess Lyman is no different.
Manufacturer's are always looking for ways to broaden tolerances without losing performance, guess Lyman is no different.