Mega Bore Lead

[Rally Hess]

Any chance your leaving a bore cleaning solvent in the chamber after cleaning? I've seen .22 ammo turn green and fuzzy in loaded handguns where Hoppes #9 had been left in the bore/cylinder.
I've tried most of the lubes you have listed and experience some leading with most of them too. I've not used the Lee liquid alox. In my mind with different guns and bore sizes, if I read your post correctly, the only one that was decent with no leading was a gas checked bullet. Would you consider changing your lube?

 

[Lost Dog]

I think everyone is worrying about the corrosion caused by the rotten powder and ignoring the extreme lead issue. But yes, I have changed lubes several times with only limited success with a concoction that I came up with of pastewax and beeswax. That was mixed and applied by heating the blend and dipping the bullets up to the lube groove(S) and sizing in the sizing chambers of the 310. Thus far no commercial lube has been effective.

I've tried everything that I can think of but the lead still fills the bore. I've been told by others that my bullets are undersized. Under lubed. Over lubed. Too hard. Too soft. Bore not broken in and must shoot 1,000 jacketed rounds. Need to fire lap. And more. Basically I'm out of ideas to loose the lead. I'll measure the expanding plugs and report back.

 

[Ian]

Not sure of the exact cause but no doubt you have gas leaks washing out lead or something weird going on with your alloy that it sticks to everything, like it has WAY too much tin in it. You said your problems started when you ran out of radiation shielding, so there's a clue. I think your beeswax/JPW lube is marginal but probably adequate for what you're doing if your other ducks are in a row. You said you used other lubes and the problem persisted, so I doubt a 'better' lube would reduce the leading. Liquid Alox is hit and miss if used by itself, sometimes it works ok and sometimes not depending on the exact balance of the other components and the gun being dimensionally friendly to cast bullets.

The best way to tell if your expanding plugs are an issue is to seat a bullet in an empty, resized/expanded case as you normally would when loading finished ammo and then pull the bullet with an inertial puller and measure the bands that were inside the case. This checks case tension, bullet hardness, and state of neck anneal, all of which will either work FOR you or AGAINST you.

 

[KHornet]

Well now, this thread is for sure different. Kind of like the left it loaded thought. I have left rifles loaded, but not chambered for a considerable period of time. Would never as a matter leave a rifle loaded with one in the chamber. To easy to make a mistake.
Ya, I am lost on the electrical jump bit as well. Can you splain that a bit more?

 

[Lost Dog]

Ok. Measured the expanding plugs on both dies I've used in the .45-70. The first one is the old Lyman 310 which miked out at .4565" for the leading portion of the die that expands the area of the case that grips the body of the bullet. And the measurements were identical with the 1977 RCBS set of dies for my bench press.
Note: The RCBS dies and the 457124 sized to .457" were used to load an original Sharps and Trapdoor Springfield some years ago and neither suffered from a leading issue.
So I'm not sure if the expanding plugs are creating a problem with bullets sized at .457". Oh, and sizing to .458" and .459" as well as unsized at .460" all produced bad leading.

The average velocity of the loads runs in the 1200 fps range. So I'm not pushing it too hard. Many of the loads I used in the old weapons were either BP or light smokeless powder in the "Trapdoor load" range. Usually 12gr of Unique. I've loaded similar in the Marlin and it leaded up almost from the first shot. Guess they don't make 'em like they used to.

 

[RBHarter]

The electrical jump may have been intended to be mentioned as electrolysis. Which could be part of the overall problem. My Dad was a plumber/pipe fitter and worked with a number of ,at that time ,exotics. It is possible that you have something in the range lead that is triggering such a reaction. I know this is a long shot ,but things have changed atmosphericly even here in the desert. I have rust where there's never been any ,a friend of mine brought his rifle by and asked "what's causing this green stuff in the bbl?". Which is something we have never ever experienced out here. It was the copper growing fuzz in the bbl for those not making the connection. A particular alloy in the steel of the bbl combined with the brass and combustion by products and who knows what might have come from burm impact. May be at the root of the problems. Reaching just a little further here is the oil finished? With a poly or similar finish you may have the perfect storm to make a self plating bbl with the rifle itself becoming a battery. My physics is weak I understand more than I can explain in any sort of a coherent way.
Scrub your chamber and bolt face ,pick the case mouth and chamber step junction clean . Look at your lead test for zInc . You can get some into a batch without bad results and you may have such a thing and it may be immbedded in the bbl. I know you've scrubbed the bbl but it may be there yet.

You may have a choke point in the bbl . I have this Savage......
Long story ,short solution it basically had thread choke . The 1st 4" were clean as we're the last 4" with a lube star. Turns out the bbl was actually swollen in the middle so a few laps knocked the choke out of the 1st 4" in front of the chamber without taking it out of the last 4" at the muzzle .

Just in case the 2 above theories are just to ridiculous to even consider get a few pistol bullets and some note book paper and roll 2 not over lapping wraps and shoot some at full tilt . Paper patching will smooth out the bbl maybe completely eliminating the naked bullet fouling after a few (or 100) rounds . It will also take away from the search several variables . Go back to the other forum for a complete paper patch tutorial, I'm a poor teacher ,there are tutorials for both smokeless and black and there are some significant differences as well as paper info in the BP section.

While much of this is just crazy you have tried 95%of the normal fixes in 40+ combinations eliminating 99% . It can't hurt to try some throw the book away answers.

 

[Lost Dog]

I'm an old hand at paper patches. Had a Gallagher carbine (1861) that was a split breech design. Over the years it gathered some serious pits in the bore. I spun my own brass cases and paper patched to get it to shoot well. Later I paper patched for the Sharps I had with a pp bullet. And I've shoot a few with moderate paper and the 457124 sized to .454". Of course the pp loads left zero fouling other than powder in this short Marlin. May just have to keep diapers on rounds for this thing!

 

[yodogsandman]

I had leading in 3 rifles last summer and never had any before while shooting anything. I found that I was adjusting the case mouth flare too small, to only seat a bullet half way up the gas check. I went back to adjusting the case mouth flare to the top of the GC's and all was well again, no leading. This also happened when I recently started shooting 45ACP. I adjusted the flare out bigger, almost to the top of the bottom band (plain base) and it fixed that, too.

I wonder if your rust problem is from using buss bar lead. Wouldn't that be like using battery lead?

 

[Lost Dog]

The isolated incident that occurred where the corrosion in the bore was before I obtained the buss bars. Now I do recall that I got talked into the use of a Lee Factory Crimp die for this caliber by others a few years ago. Found one day that it was compressing the bullet down to .452"! Outrageous! I threw that die into the trash. I'm now necksizing with my 310 tool with only enough to cover the length of the bullet. Then all cases are equally expanded to .457" by the expanding die. Due to the weapon being a tube magazine feed, I roll crimp with the 310's seating/crimping die. The case mouth is expanded just enough to allow the bullet base to enter without deformation.
What I find curious is that the neck tension is the same on both the 454242 and the 457124 sized to .457". The pistol bullet having a single lube groove and the rifle bullet having 3. One would think that the pistol bullet would be a poor choice over the longer rifle bullet with three times the lube, but such is not the case. Having fired as many as 35 in one sitting at the bench and not even a trace of lead was found upon my thorough cleaning. And this was with casting from the buss bars as well. I'm telling ya at one point I was ready to wrap this rifle around a tree and throw it into the woods!

 

[quicksylver]

Very interesting thread !

Lots of good information.

A couple of comments on the corrosion.

I have seen here in the NE along the coast three things happen.

1. I have seen guns rust during an afternoon session of Trap or Skeet.
2. I have also seen where an individuals chemical make up will cause the rust to appear almost instantaneous
in the right environment.
3. Keeping ammo in certain holders ( like leather) will cause what you describe.

The heat from firing a single round will set up the condition needed to create the situation you described,
especially in the environment you described.

We are use to it happening here.

You probably could have fired 19 more rounds, gone home and cleaned the gun with no apparent problems.

Same thing happened in Viet Nam with the .223

As for the leading.

Since you have tried every thing else I would say it would be worth it to buy a couple of pounds of know alloy from say
Roto Metals or the Captain or Missouri Bullet Co.

Beg borrow or steal some well performing lube.

If this does not help the situation have the barrel relined by John Taylor at Taylor Machine in Or.

As I said interesting.

 

[fiver]

okay i'm looking at this as an alloy problem.
shielding lead can contain antimony and nothing else.
the way this would work is even thoough there is antimony in the alloy it actually is more malleable than an alloy with Tin in it too or one with tin alone and no antimony.
antimony breaks down inside the lead alloy and alloys the lead to glide over it and itslf easier.
so what you had was a more malleable alloy that was working with the timing pressure of the powders you were using.

when you changed you actually had a less malleable alloy that was fighting with the barrel by not relaxing and flowing when it needed to.

what you could try is pushing the alloy you have now with a much slower powder for a longer period of time in the barrel, this could avoid the alloy relaxing [leaving the lead deposits]
where it is.

 

[KHornet]

Lots of good suggestions and thoughts here with this thread. Like Quicksylver, I have seen guns on a trap and skeet range on a hot humid afternoon, come off a line with rust. Once saw a perfect couple of finger prints on an expensize single trap gun, that had just frire a 200 straight before setting it in the rack. Finger prints appeared to be rusted in when he picked up the gun after a couple hours to go home. Also have seen leather corrosion on brass as he describes. Believe that is one reason that a lot of LOE's carry nickel plated ammo in their loops.

 

[Lost Dog]

Yeah fiver, I've had on occasion shot several short pistol bullets with my oddball beeswax/pastewax lube with fast powder like Red Dot and nothing but a clean shinny bore. Not a trace of lead. NRA 50/50 with a Lyman 457124 and a moderate load of 3031 did kinda well but not great. Better with AA5744. Lousy with RX7. That was awful. I got some WW from my brother and cast several rounds of the Lee 340RNFP (and I hate Lee moulds) with the WW. The bullet average weight though is 355gr and the Lyman 124's are 405gr~408gr. The "thumbnail test" further indicates super soft lead. And I have paper thin nails too!

So I don't know if I have soft alloy or what. Buss bar stuff casts heavy too like it's soft too. I don't push anything heavy with this stubby levergun. Anything above 1250fps with the heavier Lyman bullet beats me up and I'm a might old now and got nuthin' to prove with a "recoil endurance test". I prefer a load I can hit with and not be battered in the process.

But yes, it's gotta be something with the alloy, as lube and sizing changes did little. I reached a point where I just didn't want to shoot the weapon and was going to trade or sell it to be rid of it. I'm of an age now if something doesn't work right I get rid of it. I'm nearly there with this thing.

 

[Bret4207]

Well, faster powders give a different pressure curve, as will using a lighter, shorter bullet. Have you tried the faster powders with the heavier bullets? I'm not a fan at all of the "obturation" method of fitting a bullet, (smash it into putty in the hopes it will fit!), but sometimes it works.

I'm in the group wondering about sizing damage in the seating/crimping process. I may have missed it, but have you pulled any bullets to check? A pitted barrel is always going to be more of a headache than a nice, smooth barrel. It may be worth a try to coat the pitted sections with something along the lines of liquid alox or other lube. Let if get in the pits and fill them and then run a patch through to "iron" it into the pit. It's worked for me on some real rough surplus barrels a couple times, but it's no guarantee. You are in effect "seasoning" the barrel manually. If you've had to scrub the barrel after every session you may need to just get it shooting and never, eve touch the inside again- or change loads either! I have had at least 2 rifles I recall that responded to that method.

I think it might be worth your time to take your alloy and add 2-3% each of Sn/Sb, preferably from something of a known value with some of the vital trace elements like arsenic in it. Good old fashioned WW would be my choice if you can get some old stuff. A pound or two of juiced alloy would tell you what needs knowing- if it's the Sn/Sb thats needed. Usually if a mix has an appreciable amount of Zinc in it you will see evidence in casting, like it won't cast for crap! The possibility that you have a super Tin rich alloy exists. You can sort of make a wild hair guess at this by comparing the weight of one of your bullets with that of a known example in #2. Any Lyman design should work for this. The factory listed nominal weight is in #2 alloy. I can't recall the formula at all, but basically the idea is that the lighter or heavier your test example runs the more or less Tin it's likely to contain. Tin rich will be lighter.

The other possibility was mentioned in another post- a choked barrel. IME, it's a rare thing, but it can happen. The combination of a pitted barrel and a choked barrel? Trade the sucker off or get a replacement barrel. That or stick to jacketed if you can find a decent load.

 

[Lost Dog]

Sadly, I like the weapon. Points fast and the action is smooth and fast. And is wonderfully accurate. The one time rusting/corrosion incident that occurred did damage a 3 to 4" section of the bore. I had only mentioned that to explain how it was damaged. Never thought so many folks would become fixated on it.... But, with paper patched rounds naturally no lead is deposited in the bore, and some remarkable groups are an everyday occurrence. I'll likely just use what works and paper patch and just live with it. So many different solutions presented has in reality given me too many options to pursue, and in fact has created more confusion. I regret mentioning the corrosion incident as it detracted from the thread's original theme. I will slowly attempt some of the remedies suggested in time. Presently all 175 .45-70 cases are loaded with either the Keith .45 Colt round or paper patched 457124's sized appropriately. The Lee castings have been returned to the pot. I strongly dislike aluminum moulds and prefer iron above all else. Again, my thanks to all for their support and encouragement along with some well thought out replies.

 

[fiver]

the corrosion thing is just a little thread drift.

I'm really bad about drifting a thread and then coming back to the question then wandering off into something else again.
it's kinda like having a normal conversation with me.
I switch subjects and chat along while thinking about the original subject then eventually come back around to it again, then off to something else for a bit, then back again.