Need some help from "Bullet Math" guys

[Josh]

As an aside:

Normally I average my velocity then round to the nearest 5 fps. So a load that averages 1347 fps will get wrote down as 1350 fps. That load above gave me a 2 fps ES over that string one at 1086 and one at 1088. When averaging it out it was an obvious 1087, I figured if the load wanted to be that exact I should be as well.

I would seriously look at the 2.5 gr of titegroup with that 55 gr NOE, Ian hit a real winner with that 22 duplicate load.

 

[JWFilips]

So Isn't quenched WW up above the hardness of where everyone is talking Plain base should be at? Would not plain air cooled WW be a better candidate?
After reading everything up until Josh's last post I got an understanding of what everyone was saying But now after this last post with quenched wheel weights I'm back to being confused

 

[Josh]

So Isn't quenched WW up above the hardness of where everyone is talking Plain base should be at? Would not plain air cooled WW be a better candidate?
After reading everything up until Josh's last post I got an understanding of what everyone was saying But now after this last post with quenched wheel weights I'm back to being confused

I was just saying what I used, I planned on using them in the 2000 fps neighborhood, you could use air cooled weights just as easy

 

[Rick]

So Isn't quenched WW up above the hardness of where everyone is talking Plain base should be at? Would not plain air cooled WW be a better candidate?
After reading everything up until Josh's last post I got an understanding of what everyone was saying But now after this last post with quenched wheel weights I'm back to being confused

It is harder than where I would start, around 18 BHN. My guess would be that since it worked so well that the bullet was a really good fit in that particular firearm. As for Josh it's the old saying . . . If it ain't broke don't fix it. If I were on the quest for such a reduced 22 load I would start with air cooled CWW and maybe even 50/50 CWW/SWW for about 9 BHN. Better odds of success from the git go.
.

 

[Josh]

I would definitely recommend following Rick's advice with the BNH if you are using a bolt gun, I just picked up a pill bottle of bullets to try a concept and fell into an excellent load, when I cast more I will also cast softer to see if that tightens the group up any.

 

[Ian]

Jim, I'm going to make a wild guess and an educated guess as to why Josh's harder bullets worked. First is gas checks. Second is little .22s water-quenched from the mould don't get very hard compared to larger bullets. That last is from experience, the first from looking at his SD.

 

[JWFilips]

Ok I see me error; I didn't realize Josh's bullets were Gas Checked. I can see where that could make a difference. I will be trying some of the NOE 55 PB air cooled next time.
In the mean time I may try the Gas Checked version at the lighter loads. Hope my LGS has Tite Group That one powder I do not have on my shelf
Jim

 

[Rick]

I dunno about that Ian. The same alloy treated in the same way will heat treat the same. Logic would say that if any difference they my get a bit harder due to lack of mass and quicker cooling.

 

[Ian]

That's right, Rick, but but that assumes the alloy is treated the same way, which in all likelihood with .22 bullets is not what's happening.

.22 blocks tend to run ice cold and the little bullets lose heat at light speed between the blocks and water. The only way I know of to get equivalent results to larger bullets is ladle pour and supplement block heat with massive amounts of overflow and hustle like a madman to get the bullets into the water. If one sticks in the cavity and requires a tap and thus an extra two seconds to hit the water, it will not harden as much as the others in the batch.

Generally, same alloy, bottom pour, my water-quenched .22s run about 4-6 points more soft after aging than .30-caliber using the same technique.

 

[Ian]

Ok I see me error; I didn't realize Josh's bullets were Gas Checked. I can see where that could make a difference. I will be trying some of the NOE 55 PB air cooled next time.
In the mean time I may try the Gas Checked version at the lighter loads. Hope my LGS has Tite Group That one powder I do not have on my shelf
Jim

It was a wild guess, he might have been shooting them without checks, but based on the exterior ballistics I'm betting not.

 

[Rick]

That's right, Rick, but but that assumes the alloy is treated the same way, which in all likelihood with .22 bullets is not what's happening.

.22 blocks tend to run ice cold and the little bullets lose heat at light speed between the blocks and water. The only way I know of to get equivalent results to larger bullets is ladle pour and supplement block heat with massive amounts of overflow and hustle like a madman to get the bullets into the water. If one sticks in the cavity and requires a tap and thus an extra two seconds to hit the water, it will not harden as much as the others in the batch.

Generally, same alloy, bottom pour, my water-quenched .22s run about 4-6 points more soft after aging than .30-caliber using the same technique.

Yeah that's logical. Also the very reason I never quench from the mold, if I heat treat it's done in the convection oven. All bullets at the same heat and all bullets hit the same temp water at the same time. It's also the reason I ladle with lot's of alloy flowing over the sprue plate & block, small bullets and large. In all of the long range revolver testing I've done it became clear that one of the easiest ways to open groups is to use bullets of varying hardness within the same group.
.

 

[Winelover]

At first, I water dropped my 30 caliber bullets for the semi-auto.......then switched to oven heat treating. Will never water drop again.....especially with MiHa's 30 cal silhouette bullet that balks at consistent release from the mould. Cull first, then HT the remainder, the next day.

 

[Ian]

Yep, you guys are right-on with the heat treat routine. I think a lot of the time people unwittingly introduce a big variable into their groups when water-quenching from the mould. Unless you test a large group of bullets (I have, many times) and are absolutely ruthless with your timing and cull anything that's out of the "mean" as you cast, your final hardness will be a broad range with many falling outside what the load prefers. What ends up happening would have the same effect as something like a 5% or more variance in charge weight.

This doesn't mean a person can't make very consistent batches of bullets when water quenching from the mould, it just means that one has to pay close attention and like John said, some situations just don't permit consistency with the method. Overall, nothing compares to the consistency a well-executed oven heat-treat and quench will deliver.

 

[JWFilips]

I agree; I have moulds I have no problem Water quenching because I have steady& Smooth Cadence.....I have other moulds where it is "Drop, Damn you, drop!" Wack Wack! those are the ones I worry about!

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

Josh in your first post (with pictures) what alloy were you using? I saw you used COWW with the 646's.
Winelover & Ian Thank you for the inf. on the reason for heat treating bullets over mold/WQ bullets.

 

[Josh]

Josh in your first post (with pictures) what alloy were you using? I saw you used COWW with the 646's.
Winelover & Ian Thank you for the inf. on the reason for heat treating bullets over mold/WQ bullets.

I was using straight WW alloy, it may have had 1% tin but I doubt it, the mould is a newer Lyman and surprisingly fits my Triple Deuce perfectly. That can't be said for my 223's. It casts a .225 bullet with WW alloy and they rain out of the mould as fast as I open it. If all new Lyman moulds cast like it does then Lee wouldn't have such a market share of moulds.

My original plan was to load them up for shooting in the 222 between 1900 and 2100 fps, I need to make another batch but right now my house is tore up (just moved) and I have a million projects to get done before my loading room. I just stumbled onto that load Ian made, I have to suggest anyone try it who is casting for the 22 bore.

 

[JWFilips]

Does anyone know anything about the NOE 225-62FN GC (MX3-22-EX) bullet?
I have about 50 samples here Lubed and gaschecked. I was going to try in my 1 in 12 twist .223 but now I'm not so certain I should be playing with long heavy bullets!
These weigh in at 64 grain and are .725" in length

 

[Josh]

JW,

I also shot some of the 75 gr (.809 long) 5.56 heavy bullets from my 222, I got them up past 2300 fps and could not get them to stabilize in my 1-12. They had oblong holes and 12" groups at 50 yds

 

[RBHarter]

The NOE 225-55 RF copyish of the 22-55 drop at 62 gr for me and shoot well in a 222 Savage 340C that I believe has a 1-12 twist . I was surprised that they shot as well and more surprised at how fast on so little powder .

 

[JWFilips]

Well at least these are gas checked so maybe I won't have leading. May as well give them a try around 2000-2100 & see what happens