Need some information and advice

Gary

SE Kansas
So, I have this RPR 5.56 that I've been reloading for and need advice. I get MOA with cheap factory ammo, but not so good with my reloads. If anyone has Quickload and could help with some data I'd really be appreciative. I am loading with RP brass(full length sized and trimmed to 1.750); CFE 223 (26gr); WSR primer and Hornady 55 gr FMJ. OAL is 2.255 +~- .002. Every pwd charge is separately weighed and the bullets are ALL exactly the same weight. Final assembly is with a Wilson comp. seating die. I need to know if I need to change pwd charge (going to go up in charge with next reloads in .5gr increments); change primer or change bullet, OR some combo of the components.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
First suggestion I would make is to only make one change at a time. If you make multiple changes and the results are better, the same or worse you'll not know any more than you do now and not know which change caused any possible changes.
 

Gary

SE Kansas
That's what I was thinking and probably will switch primers first. I'll either go with CCI 41 or Tula (I've has very good results with Tula).
 

Ian

Notorious member
Quickload predictions are a lot more accurate if you know the case internal capacity in grains of water. I don't think CFE is listed yet, but I have an older version.

My first suggestion is get a better bullet. Something that says "Berger" or "Sierra Matchking" on the box. Sierra SMP 63 gr. bullets are also a good choice (thanks to Fiver for that tip). Some rifles shoot the Hornady profile OK and some just won't, depends on the rifle's throat and how worn it is (AR throats are absolutely all over the map, you just have to experiment). Also, size the brass to fit your chamber and not just crush the shellholder against the bottom of the die. I get it that your "cheap factory ammo" shoots MOA and that stuff is likely below minimum case specs and has crappy bullets, but SOMETHING is different and it's likely a fit thing. Try to match the bullet profile and the distance from lands of your storebought ammo with your handloads, remember that "fit" is still king even with Jax. Get curious, measure your prepped brass against the storebought, get a Wilson case gauge and do some comparing. Use the case gauge to establish your headspace using fired brass and with the ejector out of the bolt. .002" shorter than jamming the datum point is plenty unless you shoot suppressed. Compare to factory ammo. Try a different powder, H-322 is a gold standard, about 2/3 the way between starting and max book loads. IMR 3031 has worked well for me as well.

As for primers, I too find TULA AR223 primers to be fantastic for accuracy...assuming you can tolerate the way they smell. CCI is a close second. WSP I have used a lot in full-power loads but never got stellar groups, primers are very old though.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
try a different bullet.

the first cartridge I got serious about reloading was the 223 in a ruger target varmint rifle I bought in like 90 or 91.
serious as in I was going to try neck turning, load tweaking, oal changes, primer pockets, blah blah.
I was shooting myself in the foot by using the cheapest bullets I could find, and by using a 12 power yellowed out old leupold scope I picked up used [still using it]
my next trick was trying some 64gr Winchester factory ammo in a 12 [I think still ain't sure] twist rifle just to see if it was me or not [groups shifted left 2"s and got bigger not smaller]
well crud this rifle isn't all that accurate but I ain't got money for a new one right now so in the closet it went.
about a year and a half later I picked up a ruger in 223 it was more of a walking varmint rifle but it had no problem shooting all of those leftover test loads in an inch or smaller.
pretty dang good for a thin barreled rifle.
shortly afterwards I thought maybe I should go ahead and use this rifle for some varmint shooting it ain't that far to drive and i bought some varmint bullets.
they shot quite well as long as I didn't get the barrel too hot,,, hmm I got this other 223 maybe I should see how it does.
instant happy,,, good enough that my dad got on board with a trip and bought himself a Savage 223.

long story there just to say the keys to accuracy are found in 2 steps and a little mucking about.
the first step is to have a good barrel.
the second step is to use a good bullet.
the mucking about comes from finding the centerline of that barrel and putting the bullet in it.
do those three things and it don't matter what the bullet is made out of or what you use to accelerate it to speed your well on your way to success.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
It's important to understand, while "mucking about", what affects what.

Primers can be too hot, not not enough, inconsistent themselves, or just inconsistent with the powder choice and case volume you're working with. Generally it's a "tenth" thing, if you aren't already under an inch the primers might not make any difference.

Powder. Well, it's all good powder if it's in the right burn and temperature range for your application. Neck tension, bullet weight, and primer brisance affect the "load" a primer sees, think about a spark-ignition internal combustion engine. More compression, need hotter spark. Heavily-deterred powder (high-octane fuel) needs hotter spark. But you don't want to blow the bullet out of the case with just the primer, before the powder has lit off. The only reasons to tweak powder charges is to reach a target velocity, work around barrel vibration nodes you find while shooting and to reach a "flat spot" in the velocity which is consistent with an ideal combustion ratio (ladder testing to find it). Keep in mind bullet seating depth, primer brisance, firing pin power, and case headspace also affect the combustion ratio and barrel harmonics so you have many options when a need to tweak arises. How to know what to tweak? Look at your targets and what your groups are telling you, once you understand the effect of changing things at the loading bench you will know what to do next.

Bullet seating depth. The closer to the lands you go, the peakier the pressure curve. Experiment. Higher-pressure loads need caution if loading close to the lands. Powder burn rate and yes, primer brisance and neck tension also affect the pressure curve so think about those things too when making choices.

Case fit to the chamber. This is the part about getting the bullet in the middle of the hole in the barrel and is achieved by having a chamber and cartridge that line up with that hole when you're ready to pull the trigger. Reduce all un-necessary tolerances by sizing the brass only as much as necessary to function and often by honing the case neck portion of the sizing die so that it doesn't over-work the brass. Sizing down a neck too much and then cramming a bullet into it WILL stretch the brass of the neck to the side of least resistance, which will not be equal all around the neck, ergo your bullet will not be lined up with the hole when you chamber the cartridge. Redding makes a shoulder-bump neck bushing die that works for all but the hottest loads, if you need a FL die and just run it off the shellholder enough to achieve your minimum headspace goal, RCBS makes an excellent FL die that accepts neck bushings so you only work the necks enough to hold the bullet securely....and gives you the ability to adjust neck tension to observe the effect. This die is a must for cast bullets. Again, the Wilson case gauge is invaluable for setting up your sizing die. The "small base" dies are pretty much useless and cause a lot of problems unless you have a tight chamber and a 55-gallon drum of brass fired from a worn-out SAW, in which case you probably aren't expecting sub-moa from the brass anyway.

Bullet fit. Ever notice all the different jacketed bullet profiles? Lots of choices in 22 caliber, not all will work well in everything. A chamber cast is a good way to make selections, just like it is when choosing a bullet mould. You want the bullet to FIND straight and center when it contacts the throat, not GIMBLE AWAY from center when it does. Think about that, it's very important and you need to know the shapes of each and determine how they will work together. How the bullet and throat interact based on their respective shapes will make or break the bullet balance once it exits the muzzle.

A good barrel? Yep, VERY important. If it will already shoot MOA with factory, you likely have a good one.
 

Gary

SE Kansas
Yeah, if I could understand half of what he said. Ian's WAY over my head and he threw out so many variables I'd never get a round loaded. The RPR DOES have a good barrel so that's one thing in it's favor, now to start messing with the components. Think I'll start with the pwd charge and bump it up to a point BELOW published max to see if I can capture a node. That doesn't work I'll buy use some of my Sierra MK's and see where it goes.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Fiver can (and did) give the gist in one or two sentences, but you kinda have to already know all the stuff he didn't tell you before understanding how to accomplish what he said. I try to fill in the blanks in case someone reading this wants a more detailed explanation or doesn't yet know what questions to ask to get headed in the right direction.
I'll also say that sometimes you can do everything totally "wrong" (meaning against the generally accepted way if doing things for accuracy) and get excellent results, so you just have to try things ansmd see what it gets you.
 

waco

Springfield, Oregon
Google search "Scott Satterlee ladder test"
It has worked with every rifle we have tried it in.
We have a few videos on the subject.
Go to YouTube and search Coatsbrothersfirearms.
 

Gary

SE Kansas
Now that I understand. RB's kind reference concerning a .5gr jump in pwd charge is on the mark and I plan to do a .2 jump for a 1 gr total increase. That's after I buy some Sierra .224's.
 

Gary

SE Kansas
Waco; I have seen ALL your videos, good stuff. I'm well aware of the ladder test and I'm going to do a accuracy test based on the concept, I don't have a chrono. Also going to switch pwds and possibly switch primers if results aren't what I'm looking to achieve. Still have to wait on the Sierra bullets. Not into BR shooting, just looking for something that is minute of Coyote.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
get the 63gr ones they have a rounded nose shape kind of similar to the old 223 diameter 45gr hornet bullets.
I have a swage die I had made up to make these with sierra match jackets just for my AR rifles.
that nose shape is real close to the 5.56 throat shape so it snuggles in like a cast bullet should.
it will flat smoke a coyote as far out as the 223 should be used on one, but retains more than enough accuracy.
I shoot ground squirrels with them from time to time when the rock chucks ain't cooperating and I want some trigger time.
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Spindrift

Well-Known Member
A lot of good advice and insight here! My 0,02$:

I am very pleased with Benchmark in the .223, with jacketed bullets. Even more pleased than with H322. The 55grs V-max (that’s the one with flat base), and the 40grs Varmageddon flat base’hollow point have been very accurate bullets.

And I agree; anything with «Sierra» or «Berger» on the box (and might I add «Lapua») is good stuff for establishing accuracy baseline.
 

Gary

SE Kansas
OK; I dug about in the bullet reservoir and came up with these possibles for loading to my RPR.


224.jpg

Not a very good picture but from left to right; 50gr V-Max; Sierra 52gr HPST; Sierra 55gr HP; Sierra 69gr HPST-MATCH; batch of 62gr Sierra MK's and on the end is box of Nosler 80gr (don't recall how I got these, probably in a trade). Also have (4) bx of 45gr Sierra's for the 22 Hornet.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Pick the one that has the ogive and weight closest to the bullets from the factory ammo that shoots MOA in your rifle.
 

Gary

SE Kansas
Good suggestion. However if I did that, I'd be picking the bulk 55gr of Hornady cause that's what the factory (last batch) loads are that shoot well.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
use the two boxes on the left.
those 223 diameter 22 hornet bullets will shoot well too, but they are not quite coyote medicine at 223 velocities.
little stuff you don't want to eat is pretty amusing if your into a longest or highest piece contest.