RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
US Ordnance has always looked for ways to solve the last war's problems. They never seems to understand that you need the correct weapon for today's problem.
New Century 455
- Thread starter StrawHat
- Start date
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Civilian law enforcement is no better. The range rats/training staff sat down for several meetings in the late 1990s to discuss a revamp of policies to enable more deputies to carry patrol rifles, since Uncle Sam was distributing lots of them (GI re-furbs minus the cool gearshifts) for short money. Added into the mix was the ability for deputies to carry their own AR-pattern rifles in 223 caliber, and to recommend make/model for approval. Mind you, this was only a couple months after the North Hollywood debacle, and we had our own 2700-round running gun battle from Norco to Lytle Creek in 1980. Some fires were lit under admin, they didn't like it, and they really didn't like taking recommendations from actual Proles Like Us that were starting to shot at a lot more frequently than during our Cow County days that The Suits still lived within.
But I digress. The selection was boiled down to 3 makes of AR-15 or M-4gery.......Colt, Bushmaster, and Armalite. No shop builds, no glass sights, night sights OK. The suggestion was made to add bolt rifles in 223 caliber with scope sights, which were at that time still authorized for carry with Station sign-off and quals (308 and 30-06, too). Our illustrious Suits, with great emphasis said--and I quote--"NO TELESCOPIC SIGHTS ON ANY PATROL RIFLE. THEY ARE TOO ACCURATE FOR GENERAL PATROL DEPUTY USAGE." Away forever went at least 50 scoped bolt rifles that had been carried in trunks For That Day since 1978, my own (purportedly) included.
I could not contain myself, nor could Sgt. Charlie V. "Too accurate? 91% of our shots fired against assailants miss their target, and your concern is that a system might be too accurate?" Such is the mindset of paper shufflers and cubicle farmers throughout our nation, they are timid lot. We are seeing similar mindsets in action inside Talibanistan at this writing. Charlie and I were henceforth foreclosed from Training Bureau staff meet-ups where ranks above Sergeant were present. "Truth in small doses over extended timeframes" was the watchword, then and now. As far as Charlie and I were concerned, that was a net gain--listening to most Chief Deputies, Captains, and Lieutenants bloviate around an office table was only slightly more pleasant than watching "Lawrence Welk" with my great-aunts and grandmothers as a child.
But I digress. The selection was boiled down to 3 makes of AR-15 or M-4gery.......Colt, Bushmaster, and Armalite. No shop builds, no glass sights, night sights OK. The suggestion was made to add bolt rifles in 223 caliber with scope sights, which were at that time still authorized for carry with Station sign-off and quals (308 and 30-06, too). Our illustrious Suits, with great emphasis said--and I quote--"NO TELESCOPIC SIGHTS ON ANY PATROL RIFLE. THEY ARE TOO ACCURATE FOR GENERAL PATROL DEPUTY USAGE." Away forever went at least 50 scoped bolt rifles that had been carried in trunks For That Day since 1978, my own (purportedly) included.
I could not contain myself, nor could Sgt. Charlie V. "Too accurate? 91% of our shots fired against assailants miss their target, and your concern is that a system might be too accurate?" Such is the mindset of paper shufflers and cubicle farmers throughout our nation, they are timid lot. We are seeing similar mindsets in action inside Talibanistan at this writing. Charlie and I were henceforth foreclosed from Training Bureau staff meet-ups where ranks above Sergeant were present. "Truth in small doses over extended timeframes" was the watchword, then and now. As far as Charlie and I were concerned, that was a net gain--listening to most Chief Deputies, Captains, and Lieutenants bloviate around an office table was only slightly more pleasant than watching "Lawrence Welk" with my great-aunts and grandmothers as a child.
Last edited:
Rick H
Well-Known Member
The reality is, with few exceptions, we are/were led by those who couldn't, wouldn't, or were too afraid to do the job and who did anything possible to get their sorry butts out of scout cars and into those cubicles where they spent the rest of their careers looking down their noses at those who did the work they couldn't/wouldn't do.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
But chasing calls and making traffic stops is scary. Sitting around telling nice safe people what to do and how to do it is much more fun.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I was referring to the ballistics.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
We had/have them too. Generally identified as "carpet walkers" who tell "real stories of the hallway patrol". The people who had 11 months on the road before getting assigned to the Academy and then to HQ for the rest of their career.
Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
Some time ago I read a piece written by Eugene Stoner about the development t of the AR rifles and round by Armalite. He said the 222 Remington Mag, came out after the 223 was developed and the rifle designed around it. He went on to say, that if the 222 Rem Mag was available earlier, the 223 would never have been born.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
That may be the case, Charles--I think Mr. Stoner was a lot closer to the real story than were my sources (gunwriters of the era) who presented the order of birthing in both variations in print. Logic and/or common sense may or may not figure highly in the course of events.
And Fiver thinks he is a thread swerver.......
Last edited:
Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
To be more precise, the AR rifle and 223 round were fully developed but not quite yet on the market, when the 222 Mag was released. Armalite didn't go back and reengineer around the recently introduced 222 Mag.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
The book, The Black Rifle, says that Remington designed the 222 Mag to meet the Ordnance spec's at SAAMI pressures. They were unhappy with the short neck of the Mag and came up with the 223 but raised the pressure with non-canister IMR powder. Military had no interest in a .308 AR, but the USAF wanted to replace the M1 carbine with something better that became the AR15.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Back to the 45 caliber revolvers.
The armed services at the turn of the 19th-to-20th Centuries were in a state of considerable research and development on small arms. Developments in Europe fueled some of this, with the arrival of the new smokeless powders enabling enhanced ballistic performances in rifles and handguns. Our using services c. 1892 replaced their 45 Colt and 45 S&W revolvers with the 38 Colt, which was unimpressive against the Moro warriors our forces dealt with during the Spanish-American international misunderstanding. There were plenty for 45 caliber revolvers still around in the ordnance depots though, and they got pressed into service throughout the world. As has been the case for 140+ years, the 45 caliber handgun leaves a very positive impression upon the user, and a very permanent and negative impression upon its animated targets. It doesn't need Ruger-level ballistic upgrades to achieve those results, either.
The lackluster effects of the 38 caliber projectiles upon highly-motivated/anaesthetized/psychotic attackers is no state secret, though governments and armed service orgs tend to forget such things when peace intermittently breaks out and briefly reigns in advanced nations. (WTH am I saying, the decision-makers NEVER get shot at. They normally DGAF.) But there was a brief shining moment in arms history, though, when ALL of the stakeholders in this matter throughout the world were on the same page of the book--and they all wanted more powerful rifles with longer ranging capabilities as well as decisive sidearms in serious calibers to STOP BAD GUYS UP CLOSE MOST RICKY-TICK.
It was against this background and in this context that the 45 S&W Special was birthed, along with the EXCELLENT 45 ACP. The Marine Corps even adopted their Model 1909 D/A 45 Colt (mostly Colt New Service, a few S&W N-frames) for a few years. If you are getting shot at in close quarters, a sidearm with a big bullet is quite comforting. The only thing "wrong" with the 45 S&W Special was that it didn't make the cut against the Colt/Browning 45 ACP self-loading pistol. 110 years later, people still ask for and buy Old Slabsides. But a 6-shot 45 S&W Special wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to carry in harm's way, either. ToMAYto/toMAHto.
The armed services at the turn of the 19th-to-20th Centuries were in a state of considerable research and development on small arms. Developments in Europe fueled some of this, with the arrival of the new smokeless powders enabling enhanced ballistic performances in rifles and handguns. Our using services c. 1892 replaced their 45 Colt and 45 S&W revolvers with the 38 Colt, which was unimpressive against the Moro warriors our forces dealt with during the Spanish-American international misunderstanding. There were plenty for 45 caliber revolvers still around in the ordnance depots though, and they got pressed into service throughout the world. As has been the case for 140+ years, the 45 caliber handgun leaves a very positive impression upon the user, and a very permanent and negative impression upon its animated targets. It doesn't need Ruger-level ballistic upgrades to achieve those results, either.
The lackluster effects of the 38 caliber projectiles upon highly-motivated/anaesthetized/psychotic attackers is no state secret, though governments and armed service orgs tend to forget such things when peace intermittently breaks out and briefly reigns in advanced nations. (WTH am I saying, the decision-makers NEVER get shot at. They normally DGAF.) But there was a brief shining moment in arms history, though, when ALL of the stakeholders in this matter throughout the world were on the same page of the book--and they all wanted more powerful rifles with longer ranging capabilities as well as decisive sidearms in serious calibers to STOP BAD GUYS UP CLOSE MOST RICKY-TICK.
It was against this background and in this context that the 45 S&W Special was birthed, along with the EXCELLENT 45 ACP. The Marine Corps even adopted their Model 1909 D/A 45 Colt (mostly Colt New Service, a few S&W N-frames) for a few years. If you are getting shot at in close quarters, a sidearm with a big bullet is quite comforting. The only thing "wrong" with the 45 S&W Special was that it didn't make the cut against the Colt/Browning 45 ACP self-loading pistol. 110 years later, people still ask for and buy Old Slabsides. But a 6-shot 45 S&W Special wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to carry in harm's way, either. ToMAYto/toMAHto.
fiver
Well-Known Member
there was quite an explosion of things happening back then.
smokeless powder, jacketed bullets, metallurgy, from about 1890 or so to about 1912 it seemed like every year someone was coming up with something new.
the 6.5 swede, the 7.5 swiss, the 0-6, what? 4 different Mauser rifle rounds, the LeBel, the mauser pistols, the borchard, the 1911, the Brit and Jap 30 cals, the short lived 30 Army, the 30-30etc., the 303 and 300 Savage, the 9mm,,, and probably 20-30 more all popped up in that 20 year period.
amazing.
smokeless powder, jacketed bullets, metallurgy, from about 1890 or so to about 1912 it seemed like every year someone was coming up with something new.
the 6.5 swede, the 7.5 swiss, the 0-6, what? 4 different Mauser rifle rounds, the LeBel, the mauser pistols, the borchard, the 1911, the Brit and Jap 30 cals, the short lived 30 Army, the 30-30etc., the 303 and 300 Savage, the 9mm,,, and probably 20-30 more all popped up in that 20 year period.
amazing.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
There was a similar (though smaller in scale) "revolution" in the mid-1980s in this country involving its sidearms, both for citizen and police. It seemed very sudden publicly, though it had been brewing in the background for some time. I am talking about the preference in this country of long duration for revolvers over autopistols. In the mid-1980s, that preference did a 180* turn--seemingly overnight. What happened?
Lots of things--primarily, pistol designs were refined to feed hollow-point bullets reliably. This was HUGE. Both cops and citizens read the papers, and saw that criminals were up-arming and becoming more brazen. Glock pistols were intro'ed in the USA in 1985--affordable, reliable, very high magazine capacities, simple manual-of-arms. The roll-out of the 40 S&W happened at EXACTLY the right time, and it was and remains a winner--45 ACP-like stopping ability, 9mm-like high capacity, and put up on 9mm-sized platforms. The folks at my old shop can choose among 5 calibers for primary carry, and the 40 S&W remains primary for over 60% of them.
I love my wheelguns, but for social work I cart around a Glock 23 or a SIG P-220 (45 ACP). If I am obliged to exchange finality, I want my sent message clearly understood. Since retirement, I have had two incidents in which lethal force application was only narrowly avoided, and a couple other times where surroundings awareness enabled us to avoid contact with goblins. Only one of those instances occurred in an urban environment, the rest were back-country matters. Predators are among us, and the soft postures of many prosecutors' offices empower and incentivize the goblins. Flip the script on these drain clogs.
Lots of things--primarily, pistol designs were refined to feed hollow-point bullets reliably. This was HUGE. Both cops and citizens read the papers, and saw that criminals were up-arming and becoming more brazen. Glock pistols were intro'ed in the USA in 1985--affordable, reliable, very high magazine capacities, simple manual-of-arms. The roll-out of the 40 S&W happened at EXACTLY the right time, and it was and remains a winner--45 ACP-like stopping ability, 9mm-like high capacity, and put up on 9mm-sized platforms. The folks at my old shop can choose among 5 calibers for primary carry, and the 40 S&W remains primary for over 60% of them.
I love my wheelguns, but for social work I cart around a Glock 23 or a SIG P-220 (45 ACP). If I am obliged to exchange finality, I want my sent message clearly understood. Since retirement, I have had two incidents in which lethal force application was only narrowly avoided, and a couple other times where surroundings awareness enabled us to avoid contact with goblins. Only one of those instances occurred in an urban environment, the rest were back-country matters. Predators are among us, and the soft postures of many prosecutors' offices empower and incentivize the goblins. Flip the script on these drain clogs.
Last edited: