New lesson on "simple repair"

Ian

Notorious member
Yep, done the hokey pokey programming dance more than once. I think the program engineer did that just so he can laugh his butt off knowing how many people will be (with deep concentration) hopping about like idiots going through the sequence. It never works the first time, also probably part of the program sequence, that line of code in the end that contains a counter. (Nah, they wouldn't really do that would they??) Well.... who knows. The whole stupid ordeal deal just as easily been done through steering wheel audio or cruise buttons, or buttons on the AC control head, with the clock, cluster, or overhead display operating a countdown sequence, you know, like it was in the '80s. Oh, but if it was easy everybody would do it and not go pay the dealer to do it for them with their OEM scan tool (MUCH simpler process).

I bet what's happening with your liftgate glass isn't a malfunction, it's a program. If you had a scan tool that could read bus codes or body control module codes, it would be setting a set of codes for open circuits in the liftgate switch when you unplug it (remember, the systems are still awake and chatting to each other when you pull out the key), at which point the BCM is likely programmed to cut power to the whole flipper operation (meaning ignore further switch signal inputs) when it sees a connection problem so if you hit a bump at 70 mph and make mildly irritated and terribly inconvenienced pixies jump a bad connection somewhere, the glass doesn't inadvertently fly open and cause you to veer off a bridge in your moment of WTF!!! Clearing your codes by disconnecting the battery (TERRIBLE idea, by the way, more on that in a minute) puts everything back to normal until another malfunction is detected.

OK, I get it that sometimes you have no choice, but just power cycling the whole electrical system via the battery terminal isn't something you want to do very often. Reason? Adaptive memory gets wiped. Every module in the system except a few that actually write to hard memory (RKE codes, VIN, milage, cam/crank synchronization yes/no, etc.) gets its adaptive learned values reset to factory default values...which are barely good enough to make the vehicle operate when all the parts are brand new, much less compensate and optimize for your driving style (yep, you read that right, if it's OBD II it adapts to how you drive), wear on parts, carbon buildup, increased resistance in electrical connections, etc. etc.. There are a number of values which are re-learned almost instantly, but many are contained in a program set of the powertrain computer that we refer to as "MODE 6", or non-continuously monitored circuits. These Mode 6 parameters are what makes the vehicle run the way you expect, and they are only updated during certain conditions. Your altitude, for example, is only monitored at wide-open-throttle (zero manifold vacuum), and if the system doesn't know your altitude it has to make corrections vs. speed/density calculations (calcs based on pre-programmed formula that don't adapt) and oxygen sensor input...which doesn't work well on a cold start until the O2 heaters come on line. So you can get a case of the cold-start stalls. Also, idle air controls or electronic throttle controls have to adapt their position counters against airflow, and this must be learned and fine-tuned by actually driving. Then of course there's the short and long term fuel strategies, one set per bank of cylinders, and these keep the stoichiometry right at every instant of driving....IF each cell has had a chance to operate and trim fuel correctly. There are a whole stack of program "cells" for just about every conceivable driver input vs. sensor reading, and once this is all updated through driving (called a "good trip", a trouble-free run through a driving routine that is even more ridiculous and dangerous than programming an extra RKE), all the adaptives get a chance to learn the best strategy, and all the Mode 6 monitors re-set themselves, then your car should operate without any hitches, jerks, hiccups, or anything out of the ordinary. Exhaust catalyst monitors take the longest to reset, sometimes hundreds of miles. Automatic transmission shifts are all constantly learned and adapted based on your driving input, sensor feedback, and a little thing called an exponentially-weighted moving average of shift timing which compares shift solenoid duty cycle, transmission line pressure, and various shaft speed sensors to determine clutch pack wear and trim the shift solenoid duty cycle to make each shift the correct firmness and speed to maximize clutch life and driver comfort. When you disconnect the battery, you lose all that. Then you get bit startup RPM flares, possibly stalls, hard or slipping shifts, poor fuel economy, etc. until everything gets a chance to re-learn its state of wear, unique resistance ranges, state of restriction (such as fuel pressure, injector deposits, intake carbon, spark plug wear, compression values for each cylinder, yadda yadda). Oh, yeah, most engines have individual injector balance adaptives based on crank angle variances fore each cylinder's power cycle which compensate remarkably for valve or ring leaks, injector tip clogs, caked carbon on the valve stems of an individual cylinder. You get a check engine light when ANY of these adaptives reach their pre-programmed limit...that's how rationality trouble codes like "transmission range error" or "bank 1 lean" are generated. The BEST way to clear DTCs in any module is with the appropriate scan tool, granted it is impractical to obtain an OEM one which can access non-powertrain systems. You can re-boot the whole enchilada with a main bus power cycle, but you are well advised to research your vehicles drive re-learn procedures and take the time to go through it after you do.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
And that is why I willingly pay people like Ian. I have no real clue what some of that meant but sure am glad someone does.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Freebullet beat me to it on the drive relearn procedure. It's important, guys, you don't want to be driving and have to panic-nail-it to avoid catastrophe and the BARO hasn't re-learned your altitude yet. The ECM goes "OH %*$*#!!! WOT commanded! Reference cell learned data blank! OMG! Thumb to page 1463 in the default OMG book and pull that program, run it quick! OOPS, fuel pressure ain't what it should be, ADD STFT to max value! Oh, and BTW, do the usual stuff like kick out the AC compressor, cut the alternator field duty cycle to zero, command full AT line pressure for a detent downshift to....oh crap! No adaptive value for the clutch timing on second gear???? Quick run the default 4/2 WOT detent shift @54 mph program and hope to smiles the clutches hold..." and on and on. The effect could be engine hesitation followed by a terrible slip-slide into a lower gear, all of which cost you precious milliseconds of power delivery when you need it most.

My boss has a 97 G-van. We finally gave up chasing the battery drain when after two years we discovered it was in the radio. Somehow the radio thinks it's getting a vehicle speed signal and keeps trying to turn the volume up, which it doesn't actually do but it keeps itself "awake", which pulls about two amps continuously keeping the amplifiers powered up vs. the ~five milliamps it takes to keep the station presets, last volume knob position, and clock circuitry going when "asleep". The radio operated normally otherwise. We pulled the radio fuse and called it good.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I got a grin in the description of the computer when anything odd done after a clean reboot. Yeah, understand it isn't ideal, but if my $90 code reader won't do it, I'm not
going to buy a $50K magic box for each car. :eek::) Is there any affordable option to do
a reset without losing the adaptive data? Esp if it was usable across different cars, I might be
willing to part with some cash for a better tool. Just saved about $250-350.......:D

I was very aware of the adaptive nature of a lot of this. A friend got some cool software for his laptop which can look at all these values, real time. He has a Fiero, and changed out
the engine from the 2.8 liter V6 to a later, but physically interchangable, NOS 3.3 liter V6. Of course the poor car computer has no idea that somebody stole his 2.8 and put
in a 3.3...... so it started pretty darned lean. Quickly the O2 sensors are screaming for "more fuel!" and it was amazing to watch. Within about 1/2 hour of driving, the
normal fuel lookup table was corrected from the ROM values to EXACTLY the ROM values multiplied by the ratio of 2.8 to 3.3. Very cool to watch. It was actually really
pretty close to right within about 5 min, but not all speed ranges exactly on correct final ratio.

Cool stuff, I do like tech, but can be infuriating, too.

I spent a whole life working with computers, making them do what I needed for my engineering job, not playing computers for computers sake, just as a tool, so I am pretty
comfortable around them. But I still wonder if a mechanical pull cable wouldn't just as good to open the rear hatch. :D Obviously for stuff like vehicle stability control, traction
control, fuel economy, smooth drivability, and safety, like air bags and such, computers are really needed, and are WAAAAY better. But door locks and a rear hatch latch.....
not quite sold.

I still think the key fob deal is funny, and you are probably right, they do it just for a laugh in the programming dept. The 4WD range emergency shift was pretty humorous,
too. But it DID work! We laughed our butts off, but were darned glad it worked. We were actually worried if we had the fuel range to make a gas station if it stayed
stuck in low range. Engine was revving so high, fuel burn would be high and ground speed so low, it was an issue way out in the boonies.

First world "problems". I have friends in Ukraine who worry about a whole lot more basic things.....o_O:(

Bill
 

Ian

Notorious member
And that is why I willingly pay people like Ian. I have no real clue what some of that meant but sure am glad someone does.

It's just technical knowledge of the profession, same as any other profession. Anybody can learn the gist of it, but it takes years of exposure and experience to connect the dots and become an effective problem solver. Like the 1993 Lincoln Town Car, with the digital speedometer display that would run up from around 6-8 mph to about 70-80 mph just by throttling the engine in park. It took two oscilloscopes, a graphing multimeter, and I don't remember how many hours of beating my head against a post before I figured that one out. I knew it was RFI-related, but what? My common-sensor went to the biggest RFI generator on the car first, the coil-on-plug ignition system, but that wasn't it. Finally I figured out it was a burned-out diode in the alternator bridge creating a huge backdraft voltage spike in the whole electrical system, which the instrument cluster somehow interpreted as a VSS signal. Changed the alternator, problem solved. Had a newer Town Car kick my butt for a while until I took the wiring manual home and studied outside the system that had trouble: The cruise control wouldn't set. No codes, all the switches, inputs, outputs, etc. all worked and were being read correctly by all modules on the bus. Figured some of the ones and zeros fell out of the central timer module, but wait.....why does the normally-open half of the brake position switch circuit (part the cruise control monitors, not the brake lamp circuit in the same switch) run all the way through the third brake light circuit? Turns out one of the set parameters for the cruise control is having the correct resistance through a huge loop that goes through the filaments of BOTH bulbs in the third brake light. The central timer module has a circuit that actually pulses a small amount of voltage through the bulbs when cruise control is commanded and watches for a certain amount to return. If one of the two bulbs is burned out, you now have one resistor in parallel to the circuit instead of two, which doubles the resistance and the computer knows a bulb is out. If one bulb is burned out, the cruise will not enable....but there's no parameter ID on the OEM scan tool or trouble code programmed to pop up and tell the technician that. Further, there's no note in the freaking OWNER'S MANUAL either in the cruise operation instructions that says "if cruise won't set, check for burned-out third brake lamp bulb". I guess it was a feature intended by the hardware engineers to make sure owners keep these high-failure, safety bulbs in good working order, but the program engineers didn't get the memo.

Most people think we mechanics just plug an all-seeing, all-knowing computer into the data link port and it spits out a description of the part of the car that needs changing, no skills required. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!! If you find one of those computers that actually does that, I'll take three dozen of them and sell them for ten million dollars each.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Yep. Understand all your years of learning AND the right hardware, and it still takes a lot of thinking to outthink
systems so complex. And the difference between a parts changer and a real trouble shooter is A LOT. More than
folks who have never trouble shot an odd problem will ever even imagine.

You know the only difference between a feature and bug is? The feature is in the owner's manual....:rolleyes:.except when it isn't. :eek::eek:
That third bulb deal was a feature, but like you said some bozo never got it to the Owner's Manual writers. :D
What a PITA, but you do feel better when you beat the damned thing, don't you?!:)

We used to laugh loud and long when the next software salesmen came up and said that his new CAD/CAM/CAE magical
system would "eliminate the need for specially trained simulation experts, all the ordinary engineers will do their
own simulations". Not likely, just like your fully automatic car computer magic fault finder. No need to sweat the
job security angle if you have a real skill set that computers will never match.

I'm happy if there is a code that gives me a decent hint.

Bill
 

Ian

Notorious member
Sounds like EFI Live, Bill, fun program. One of our customers has a 2008 Chevy 3500 HD with Duramax and Allison powertrain. The Allison adaptive software contained in the independent transmission control module is the most complex I've ever seen, it borders on artificial intelligence. In some ways, though, it's too smart and too quick for its own good, and if you throw a monkey wrench in the works such as boosting input torque through engine upgrades, it freaks right the heck out and does all sorts of stupid things. EFI Live to the rescue, just write a whole new program for it.

As for a scanner, you can do 95% of anything you'll need to with an $89 code reader with live data stream features and a system wiring diagram. It won't help you with obscure chassis, body, or communication codes (C, B, and U prefixes, respectively), but neither will a $30K Snap-On MODIS, either... much of the time. To fix things up proper after a major re-boot or battery change, obtain a copy of the re-learn driving procedure from the internet (bootleg copies abound if you know where to look) or just purchase the OEM driveability diagnostics and troubleshooting manual from the dealer or fleabay and do some reading. Hopefully your $89 scanner will translate and display Mode 6 non-continuously monitored data correctly for your vehicle and tell you what systems are being monitored, and of those, which have passed, failed, or not run yet so you can see if that portion of the relearn is complete (OBD II has either nine or ten "modes", with live datastream being one and diagnostic trouble codes being another, as point of reference). Fords are easy: When the P1000 trouble code that won't clear with the scanner or power cycle finally goes away magically on its own, all the Mode 6 tests have run, and passed. If it never goes away, you may have to look really hard at some confusing Mode 6 test data translations to pinpoint which system test hasn't passed. Most aftermarket scanner Mode 6 code translations are sketchy at best and often incomplete, or don't show up at all because every manufacturer, on every vehicle model, from one year to the next, does the code differently so a 2008 translation may not work on a 2009 of the same make/model. The EPA forgot to mandate Mode 6 data translations be universal, so the manufacturers try to make that part of OBD as confusing and proprietary as they can.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
so your sayin I can blow out the end of town in the mustang and tell the trooper I am just re-calibrating the altitude sensor.
and the only way to do it is to drive 160 mph for 20 minutes?
 

Ian

Notorious member
Oh, and on the reset.....you can sometimes minimize memory loss by only power-cycling the module that needs it. You need a complete system wiring diagram of the module in question and a quick study of every input/output to figure which sources of power makes it tick (there will usually be at least two just for the processor part of it, one switched ignition and one battery lifeline for memory). Cut power to the memory or "keep alive" circuit to just that module, or if the module isn't buried in the bowels of the dash or behind six different overlapping, fragile plastic trim panels, find it and unplug it from the mothership for a minute or two. You might set codes on the bus or in other modules making them think that module is dead, or maybe not. If there are communication codes set they likely won't interfere with anything, MOST of the time. When you change your car batteries, it's a good idea to bridge a fresh 9V battery between ground and the main power cable to keep things alive while the main battery is disconnected. Just don't short the terminals or open a door while this is going on...and disconnect your engine compartment light. If the battery under the back seat, use a better power supply which makes enough amperage to keep up with the load of the dome lamps and all the other jazz like body computer running while the car doors are open.
 

Ian

Notorious member
so your sayin I can blow out the end of town in the mustang and tell the trooper I am just re-calibrating the altitude sensor.
and the only way to do it is to drive 160 mph for 20 minutes?

If you say it something like you're "resetting the barometric pressure baseline of the mass airflow sensor" so it won't stall in traffic since it relearned the wrong data when you went over the mountains coming back from Wyoming last time, it MIGHT help, but you're prolly just going to make him laugh harder on your way to jail....

Who knows, you might make his Top Ten Wildest Stories to Get Out Of a Ticket list.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Do you have any particular maker or even specific model of code reader that you would
recommend.....not Snap-On. I do actually appreciate that Snap-On stuff is really good stuff,
but I tend to have trouble breathing for a couple minutes after seeing the prices. I have a
number of really nice specific tools where I needed the best, fortunately found one set of
integral u-joint 1/4" drive sockets on eBay for peanuts instead of the heart stopping price
for new. It is literally the ONLY way possible to pull the intake tubes off of a Continental
O-470 without a half hour 15 deg 3/8", short open end wrench dance for each of two (of 4) on each intake
tube (flat six). Really nice little sockets, thinner and smaller than anyone else's, and
required for that job, and for one each on the exhaust side, same engine.

I'd be willing to spend $200 or maybe more, esp if I had recommendation that this was
"The one" that would help on odd things. I have a $40-is one and a $80-ish reader, the cheap
just gives numbers the other one tells you the English version, although I have not read the
whole pamphlet, maybe 20 pages 2x3" that came with it, may do a bit more.

I had wondered if unplugging the local brain module in the rear hatch would cause only that
module to reboot and then bring the latch back into the fold with it. Was in a hurry and
used the big hammer, pull the main batt ground.

A friend designed a EFI system from scratch for homebuilt aircraft, want it to be totally
bomb-proof. He uses a little CPU and, IIRC, has it reboot every second or two, so no matter what sort
of odd power interruption or upset it gets, it is OK within one or two seconds. Seems kinda brutal but he
says it works very well. You do have to manually set your mixture map, but he gives you
a basic one which is very close, and you can talk to it via laptop. It is only used by two rotor Mazda folks, so they are
all pretty close to the same thing.

Bill
 
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Ian

Notorious member
I don't know much about the aftermarket scan tools, Bill. When I need a scanner I borrow one of the shop's pro tools after-hours. Really I don't want one of my own at home because sooner or later all my "friends" will find out and my phone will start ringing on the weekends. You might take a gander at Summit Racing or Jeg's, or one of the pro-tool clearing houses like thetoolwarehouse dot com or toolweb and do some reading in the descriptions. The tools with more capabilities than the typical autozone code readers tend to be like machine shop tools in that you buy the basic unit and in order to do what you want you have to pay extra for things like Japanese or European expansion packs, or abs capability, or specific engine systems like Sprinter diesels.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I can see that it would be an "attractive nuisance" to have too good a home capability. If you do it all the day
at work for money, probably not really looking for a chance to do it some more at home for free for neighbors.o_O

I'll see what I can find to do a bit better at code reading, hoping I have no urgent need in the near future to
use it.:D

Bill
 

popper

Well-Known Member
I do have the 4runner repair manual, PM if you need it. Yes I could have used the 'special' wrench when replacing the daughter's Ford 4 banger exhaust manifold. Bumped the curb and load noise. Broken one came out easy, replacement went in hard.
 

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
Ian nailed it... And I do IT for a living - for last 25 yrs. But the "IT" in a vehicle really just pisses me off. I am of the old Ford 8n/66 Ford Falcon/VW Bug mentality and skills! I can FIX mechanical in a vehicle, I don't care what it is. The IT crap, as Ian says, they make it convoluted so you can't out guess it. Bill - I would have NEVER thought about a POR (Power On Reset - ie, turn it off/on) on a vehicle - NEVER! And this is rule one on a PC (well... after making sure it is plugged in AND turned on!). a mechanical example - brakes just not sounding right/gear down/slow down coming off steep hill on Friday. Just parked it, jacked it up and pulled the rear drums. Had I taken it to a shop to check it out, bet $200 EASY! Glad I can still do at least the mechanical and some electrical/IT on cars...
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Oscar, I didn't think of it, but will in the future. I saw a youtube piece which mentioned it. I DID recognize instantly, and
with great certainty that it was going to work once I did that, because I had gone over that darned latch so many times, and in
such detail that I was 99.99% certain that the latch itself was fine. I literally laughed out loud when it worked. I was right about
the hardware, but was missing the whole software concept, the joke was on me. Hope to minimize that in the future.

Getting a upmarket scan tool, and not even terribly expensive. Paying for one read at a dealer can be as much or more than this one
costs. I still understand that the electronic scan is just " a good hint", and frequently (always?) there is still a good bit of troubleshooting
to be certain where the problem is.

I take the whole vehicle repair thing as a personal challenge. I paid to have the broken exhaust studs replaced in my F150. I know
I could have done it, but it was going to be a triple barreled b**ch to get to, and I just wasn't in the mood for it. Darned
expensive, but it was pretty much skut work and I was happy to let the pros do it and pay big $$. It was the first big
repair I have paid for in decades. Getting soft in my old age, I guess. :eek::D

Bill
 

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
FWIW - go to O'Reilly's if you have them. Free code reads and print outs. Certainly helps get you started. And yes, like you, as I get older I tend to pay for things I CAN do, but will be miserable DOING them and WAY MORE miserable for a cpl days afterwords! Just not worth it in the long run!
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Nope, Rick. It gets to all of us, I think. Those darned exhaust stud were sheared off flush, I could see one
thru the wheel well, if I got down there just right. Really poor access, rusty exhaust.......chance of messing
up an aluminum head ......just paid the $800 they needed.

Bill