New to Me Toy

[Reed]

Spent a good chunk of Saturday shooting this 1917 for the first time. It's on loan to me for an indefinite period of time. Rifle is an Eddystone, stamped OGEK. A pretty knowledgeable source tells me this means the rifle was reconditioned at Ogden arsenal and passed by Elmer Keith.

Another shooter in the party brought along his sporterized 1917. It was amazing how close the two shot the different varieties of cast and jacketed bullets we shared with each other. Similar velocities, similar group sizes. Nothing earth shattering, but some possibilities with the RCBS 180 gr FN. It didn't seem to like the Lee C309-200R (23 gr 4198, 1640 fps) or the CTL312-160-2R (25.0 gr 4198, 1850 fps) very much. Pity. The temp was in the 20's with gusts at times to 15 mph straight into our faces. As far as I know neither rifle has ever fired cast bullets before. I know there's copper in both barrels. With some work, some further cleaning, and further load experimentation, I think I can tighten this group up.

RCBS 30-180-FN 190 gr w/ COWW, lube & GC, 23 gr 4198, OAL 3.26, 50 yd, ladder sight set to 400 yd, 1690 fps @ 5 yd. Sticker is 3"
,
Reed

 

[quicksylver]

Boy that's a beauty...
I love those ...nice stock stamp to boot...

Now for the nitty gritty...you left out a whole lot of pertinent information;
What'sthe barrel...original dated 1918...if so you will need to go to at least .312 even .313..if it is a rebarrel Johnson. .311 will be fine...

All those bullets will shot good in it provided you can seat them out far enough if it is an original barrel..the originals were cut .311 groove and 30 bore and a thight bore at that..

They really shine with the Seaco 315 or one off its clones...

Might want to slow them down a bit ...keep them under 1600....

Couldn't get any of mine under 1.5" until I went to .313..

That's good shooting....BTW...Dan

I will post some pictures of mine and groups so you can get an idea of what those can do..

 

[Reed]

Dan, Thanks for the comments. The barrel is stamped 8-18. Were all these 1917's 5-groove barrels, like this one? If this old girl needs .313, I might think about my NOE 316-299. That's a bit of resizing, though. I slugged the bore, but it's hard to measure a 5-groove accurately without more equipment than I have. But, from land to groove straight across is .308. As best I can measure the depth of a groove, it's .004. Can I say that makes the barrel around .312, or is that too simplistic? Those RCBS bullets were sized .308. I'm probably lucky the group was as tight as it was. I can just push the nose of a bullet (.300 right in front of the driving band) with slight resistance all the way into the muzzle until it hits the driving band. The lands leave some light scuff marks on the nose. The geometry of the 5 lands/grooves is messing with the math side of my brain, though. Since there are no lands directly opposite, I can't really conclude that they are at .300 can I?

Reed

 

[quicksylver]

To put it bluntly...not even close...5 grooves need to be measured with a v block..

The original barrels were cut with .0055 grooves and .30 bores...2x .oo55 is .011..add the .30 bore and you have .311...plus .002 over for cast and you have .313...she will shoot...5 grouve are 50 % grouve and 50% lands..all nice and deep all perfect for cast bullets...plus the extra length of the barrel aids in sighting...just no windage..but if you are shooting for groups who cares.

These guns will key hole some Comercial j bullets..

Like i said she 's a beauty...check all the parts see if they are all marked with an "E" if not I have all the correct ones..Dan

 

[quicksylver]

BTW....you don't need that big of a bullet..with an alloy not much harder than say 14 as long as the mold cast a bullet at .312 and it's gas checked you can size them .313 and they will drive tacks..

 

[quicksylver]

Oh and get an expanding button around .310 so b ghe bullet doesn't get resized in the case neck

 

[Reed]

I knew this would be the right place to post this little adventure. I knew my math wouldn't work out. It just can't be that simple. As far as E marks, does that include the wood, or just the metal? Keep the afterthoughts coming. All good. Thanks!
Reed

 

[quicksylver]

I knew this would be the right place to post this little adventure. I knew my math wouldn't work out. It just can't be that simple. As far as E marks, does that include the wood, or just the metal? Keep the afterthoughts coming. All good. Thanks!
Reed

In most cases ...just the metal...mine however has the same small "E" stamped on the top of the butt stock.. Some pictures

 

[quicksylver]

One more

 

[fiver]

I think your 180 is doing pretty good.
I use the rcbs 150 in mine on top of 18 or 19grs of 2400. [I'd have to go look]
I thought the longer 311041 would be a good fit it was not.
the 041 does shoot very well on top of 19.3grs of 2400 in the 03A3 with a Winchester pistol primer.

to measure the outside of a 5 groove just wrap a piece of copper or some card stock around it and measure that then deduct the thickness of the wrap times 2.
you won't get a perfect exact .0005 measurement but you'll be close enough for a hundred YO rifle.

 

[Reed]

I think your 180 is doing pretty good.
I use the rcbs 150 in mine on top of 18 or 19grs of 2400. [I'd have to go look]
I thought the longer 311041 would be a good fit it was not.
the 041 does shoot very well on top of 19.3grs of 2400 in the 03A3 with a Winchester pistol primer.

to measure the outside of a 5 groove just wrap a piece of copper or some card stock around it and measure that then deduct the thickness of the wrap times 2.
you won't get a perfect exact .0005 measurement but you'll be close enough for a hundred YO rifle.

Fiver, thanks. But I want Dan's groups! <little kid tantrum> A bit more velocity and I'd go deer hunting with it, though. <tears & sniffles drying up a little> Great tip on measuring the slug. No V-block or dial indicator in my tool set. I believe this from Dan, but it'll be interesting to see how close I can come with your idea. From Dan: The original barrels were cut with .0055 grooves and .30 bores...2x .oo55 is .011..add the .30 bore and you have .311
Reed

 

[fiver]

well you got a mostly round group there.
you just need to tweak what your doing and how your doing it.

get rid of the big target and the bright colors.
slowly bump the load.
i'll tell you right now the original user would have probably kicked a dog to have shot groups like that.

we cheat, and we cheat hardcore.
measuring the throat angles and having molds built to fit them then twisting burn rates and alloys around.
using fillers to hold the powder in place and lighting the powder off as softly as possible.
and sometimes using a buffering agent to protect the base of the bullet.
heck me and Ian went so far as to make a copper plating set-up to add thickness to the necks of some of our cases.

 

[Reed]

Yeah, that sounds above and beyond what the casual target shooter does. I've read some of the custom mold discussions you guys have been having. Interesting stuff. I could certainly work on better bullet fit as several have mentioned (as soon as I pay for a bathroom remodel). I've dabbled with fillers, mostly Dacron, and not in this rifle. I've read some about chamber ringing and have been a little nervous about the whole approach. I know the conditions of their use is a whole different discussion. Probably wouldn't go as far as copper plating, but the thought makes me grin. As you say, you guys really are hardcore, and I admire the ingenuity. I might limit my brass in this rifle to thicker military brass if I figure out the chamber is big. That should help some, no? I see a chamber cast in my future. When you say lighting the powder off as softly as possible, do you mean by using slower powders or by careful primer selection? As usual, I appreciate the generosity of the folks in this forum. I've received so many constructive suggestions from several of you.

 

[quicksylver]

Their weight, lack of windage adjustment and cock on closing was their down fall...out side of that they would out shoot an 03 all day long...

 

[Reed]

I'm probably too uninformed yet to be bothered by the cock on closing issue. I know it takes a little more effort to chamber a round that way, but don't you make up for it when it's time to extract the round? The weight I can see. Lugging it around all day had to be a workout. But that also makes it nice and steady on a sandbag. In the 60's when my friend bought a surplus P14 at the hardware store, the clerk said, "Well, son, if you can't hit a deer with that thing, you should be able to club him to death with it!"

BTW, your groups are amazing. Not sure my eyes will ever see well enough to do that with iron sights even with the best light and best bullet fit, but I'll keep working on it. Also, I looked at the stamps. The barrel and receiver are E. The front stock is stamped E, but that's all the stamps I could find on the wood. The bolt is a whole other matter. I've got R, E, and W on various parts of the bolt. Truly a basket case. That's OK, if Elmer approved, who am I to protest?

 

[quicksylver]

The barrel and receiver are E. The front stock is stamped E, but that's all the stamps I could find on the wood. The bolt is a whole other matter. I've got R, E, and W on various parts of the bolt. Truly a basket case. That's OK, if Elmer approved, who am I to protest?

All minor...all the good parts are correct and in great shape..don't forget the sight ladder and front sight....easily found and replaced..

Don't be concerned about the brass..as a matter of fact some Rem or FC brass might be the cat's behind for that..a little softer than Mil. and will expand into the throat easier than Mil. and won't squeeze the bullets down as easily as the Mil brass stuff...

Neck size only..and adjust it so it doesn't size the neck all the way down to 308 or less..( boy I can see a big order going to LEE) ....

I remove the cocking piece from the bolt when I am checking the rounds for OAL ..you get a better feel for what's happing than if you are trying to cock it and seat a round..

Also single feed from the mag....if you try and chamber too many rounds by having the extractor jump over the case rim you WILL be buying another extractor....

I was too young to appreciate the above advice and now keep several in stock..

As for the cock on closing..the Brits felt that since at the time cases had the tendency to stick in the chamber that having the gun cock on closing would make it easier to extract a sticky case..and at the time they were right..but cases and loads got better and they were stuck with the cock on closing...

So instead of reading this post and replies start loading ....

 

[Reed]

So instead of reading this post and replies start loading

Roger that! Out.

 

[fiver]

the fire formed cases will help.
what your doing is simple and thinking in those terms helps keep what your trying to do in focus.
your looking to find the centerline of the barrel with the center of your bullet.
that is your base line, get the bullet up and straight.
as far as the ignition thing goes, notice my 03 load uses a L-Pistol primer.
sometimes the rifle primer and less powder works better.
and sometimes another brand with no other changes will shrink groups.

in the 0-6 using a load as simple as 18grs of 2400, tipping the powder to the back of the case, and trying different primers will give you an afternoon worth of head scratching.

 

[Cherokee]

1917's are great rifles. I have had two, one remains. Numrich sold cock-on-opening conversions for the 1917 and they work fine. I haven't worked with cast in mine much but that is going to change using the RCBS 30-180 GC which has done well in the past.

 

[Reed]

get rid of the big target and the bright colors

Did you mean get rid of the brightly colored bullseye, or the rest of the colored stuff?