Nice surprise

Ian

Notorious member
Although I appreciate the occasional need for slicker noses for reliable feeding, I'd sure love to see an accurate comparison of bullets with these slight nose alterations, showing the true resultant BCs.

I'd gladly provide a multi-cav rifle mold with a few .18" meplats and one larger meplat. Maybe Ian could minimally extend all but one of the .18s to smaller flat / round, and someone could use radar to calculate bc. Could also try varying alloy hardness to expose slump relativity.

Such a test begs a few questions on my part.

  • What caliber would demonstrate the most profound results of different nose points?
  • How fast would the bullets need to be shot, and how far, to get a useful sense of BC with the LabRadar device?
  • Would a sub-sonic comparison also be useful? I think it would be, and might insist on that being part of the test, together with real-world 25-50-75-100-200 yard drop values. I could do the drop tests myself.
  • Who has the gear and the interest to perform some "slump relativity" tests? Taking the .308 Winchester as an example, I don't start to see the noses balloon until up over 2400 fps, when there is a sudden drop in the POI. At that point groups either get a little better or go completely to hell.
Here's a target from the 31-185G where it had gone to pieces at 2400 fps and I had to switch to a ball powder to keep it together at higher speed. I'm pretty sure bullet slump was the problem, but I wanted to see if powder alone would fix it rather than fortifying the alloy.

.30 xcb group.jpg
 

quicksylver

Well-Known Member
Ian...got a question for you...would using swaged half jacked bullets with various nose shape give a better(easier) indication of how nose shape effects bullet slump..?

Seems to me it would eliminate other variables that could cause problems like twist rate, rifling type, skidding and lube and alloy influences..Dan
 

quicksylver

Well-Known Member
I wonder if we all invested in Tom's business there would be a chance he could purchase whatever it takes to make round nose bullets or at least some with smaller metplats... I could easily see a dozen new molds in my collection if he could..

Nothing wrong with the .18 Metplat...
Got a beautiful work of art from Tom..a DC mold with a modified 311-167-N and 311-179-N....so far the 167 is showing the most promise...shoots like this out of my 03's and the Rem 700 .308...

Thanks again Tom ...great mold to cast with and a fine shooter..Dan
yehuIa0.jpg
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
if you swage them before shooting you have in effect broken down the alloy.
it's kind of the same thing that would happen in the throat under acceleration.

I don't know if that would be better or worse.
but you could heat treat them and 're-set' the alloy again.

I think your better off just shortening the nose length back to almost nothing so you don't have anything there to slump in the first place..
 
A

AMTom

Guest
Such a test begs a few questions on my part.

  • What caliber would demonstrate the most profound results of different nose points?
  • How fast would the bullets need to be shot, and how far, to get a useful sense of BC with the LabRadar device?
  • Would a sub-sonic comparison also be useful? I think it would be, and might insist on that being part of the test, together with real-world 25-50-75-100-200 yard drop values. I could do the drop tests myself.
  • Who has the gear and the interest to perform some "slump relativity" tests? Taking the .308 Winchester as an example, I don't start to see the noses balloon until up over 2400 fps, when there is a sudden drop in the POI. At that point groups either get a little better or go completely to hell.

I'd say that whoever wants to do the cavity modifications should use their choice of caliber.
LabRadar can routinely track to 150 yds or so. My Oehler BC calculator requires known velocity at points 100 yards apart.
Relative velocity naturally is the key issue for slump. Faster launch, lower BC.


All I'm saying here is that we now have a tool to measure whether subtle nose shape differences in cast bullets really have any significant effect on trajectory. For anyone who has the time, inclination, and skill, it would be a very worthwhile experiment.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I have the LabRadar but lack a suitable rifle. This will also be a lot like work. I learned a while back that shooting like this quickly becomes work and not much fun.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Nope. Sold it a year or more ago. Smartest thing I ever did.
 

Ian

Notorious member
This wouldn't be so bad to do, a very thorough account could be done with a single rifle in a couple of hours easy, you're not shooting for groups and testing many variables at once like with the HV stuff. POI with each style would be nice to know, but you can determine that with a 2-3" pattern.

Getting into slump (hydraulic ballooning, actually) testing could be as involved, or not, as you like. We know where various alloys start to flow, what powder in what cartridge behind what bullet weight with how much jump wills start to cause it, so even the dynamic BC tests wouldn't necessarily be all that complex or time-consuming. You could tell right off if your load and alloy were doing what you intended, and if they didn't, stop the test and try different loads. The buggar, as always, is no being able to recover pristine bullets to see what shape they have become after firing.

Dan, the half jacket will interfere with the hydraulic flow of alloy to a certain extent. If you really want to see some BC weirdness, take a .30-caliber slug cast of air cooled wheelweights, no tin, wet-patch it, and load it to jacketed velocities with jacketed load data and a middleweight powder for the j-bullet class. Good example is .308 Winchester, 155-grain bullet, and 4064. The whole bullet becomes a torpedo shape, regardless of how it started out, and will drop a lot more than tables say it should. The paper will enable the soft alloy to withstand the launch stresses, but won't be able to keep alloy from flowing some distance toward the ultimate outcome of a hemi-spherical nose.