Noob Loob

Ian

Notorious member
One very important attribute of the DIY lubes, particularly three to five-part recipes, is that you know just exactly what is in them and can adjust the mix easily and predictably to meet specific needs like Fiver wrote previously. Starting with a lube that has known and well-proven accuracy potential something that has very well known and widely duplicated capabilities takes one big variable out of the equation and makes it a very small variable, to be manipulated last instead of first. Simple Lube and FWFL are both very "tweakable", with only slight additions or subtractions adding the versatility needed to chase a few degrees higher, lower, or adjust for various pressure levels or even alloys. Lanolin, for example is great for controlling antimony wash.

FWFL goes like this:

Beeswax. This is the Alpha and the Omega. It provides a balanced base with substance to hold itself to the bullet and a molecular structure very adept at dissolving and absorbing other oils and waxes. The "balance" comes from the broad spectrum of stuff in it that makes for a very broad, linear viscosity/temperature line. With FWFL, the beeswax portion should pretty much remain the same always, and if adjustments are needed to the lube, I've found it better to add other ingredients than subtract any of the basic ones. Beeswax is an excellent deep-draw forming lube with extremely high film strength even when liquid due to its high natural ester content. This helps get the bullet engraved with a minimum of fuss and damage, and with consistent results shot-to-shot. If your case necks are a snug fit in the chamber, you'll notice beeswax-based lubes forming lube rings on the case mouths where they filled the gap between case mouth and throat, which makes a "lube bridge" to ease the transition and swaging of the bullet's driving bands into the throat.

Heavy, paraffin oil. This stuff is the plasticizer for the wax. Paraffin oil is really the only thing I've found which can soften wax to usable consistency WITHOUT inducing purging. It is "dry", contributing very little in lubrication properties to the lube, which is good because that makes it an "invisible" viscosity modifier. It has a low viscosity index, which is a technical way of saying it has a very broad range of viscosity vs. temperature similar to the properties of beeswax. Why a low viscosity index of each ingredient (and the finished lube too) and no abrupt phase change properties is so important is a lengthy discussion in and of itself, but suffice it to say that I worked VERY hard to run both ends of the VI spectrum with various concoctions (and succeeded in what I was attempting to test) and found universally that a lube must thin out at a controlled, linear, predictable, consistent rate as temperature and pressure are applied or it will detract greatly from the accuracy potential of the system and even cause very bad metal fouling toward the muzzle.

Castor bean oil, polymerized. This stuff is very special, and is the principle "lube" in FWFL. It actually wicks toward heat rather than away from it, which is what makes it so suitable for lubricating the fuel in two-cycle gasoline engines. If too much is used, the lube becomes very erratic and slippery, but if just the right amount is used, it makes the lube handle heat and pressure like few others can, and it happens to have been tested and validated as a supreme accuracy lube ingredient through about a 130-degree temperature window.

Lanolin. This is a tough, sticky wax that also has a very low VI. Seeing a trend here? The film strength of Lanolin boosts that of castor oil and also of the natural high film strength of beeswax. When in solution, the lanolin is protected from scorching but its long, heavy, diverse carbon chains help fill in the molecular "holes" and balance the other ingredients. Additionally, something I discovered about it in FWFL more recently is that it helps balance and maintain consistent the moisture content of the lube, which is naturally a little unstable due to the hygroscopic and emulsifying nature of the sodium stearate.

Sodium stearate, Ivory soap. This is an old-time lubricating grease gellant which allows ordinary machine oils to become a stay-put grease that releases oil very slowly. SS is the final binder, and with a melt (or "drop") point of 460F, it really reigns in the viscosity fade of the lube at the upper end of pressure and temperature and keeps all the oils "locked up" until needed at high speed and high pressure. Ivory soap is another known-good 130F range, top-accuracy ingredient in several lube recipes, and as a bonus is slightly on the alkaline side of neutral, meaning it has a little leftover sodium hydroxide in it which saponifies/neutralizes free fatty acids from the castor oil, wax, and lanolin, and combustion acids.


Other Stuff you can add:

Vaseline. After fooling with all the other ingredients to adjust viscosity, I found the best thing for me was to just take the base lube made per the recipe and add 5% Vaseline. This discovery was made one day while I was shooting in slightly cooler than normal weather, as I recall it was about 60F, or thereabouts. Not cold enough to get into the cold-start issues nor tee-shirt weather (for me). That particular day my groups were opening up, a lot, with a very well-proven load that I was just shooting to double check sight adjustment before a hunt. When I pulled the 100 yard target, I noticed little lube "boogers" on the paper. Yep, lube was still coming off the bullet as far down range as 100 yards, and it was upsetting the balance. I made several adjustments to very small batches of lube, each of which created other problems, and finally settled on just adding some Vaseline to the original recipe. That did the trick and ironed out the little bump that was near, but not at the bottom of the useful temperature range of the lube for that one rifle and load that was giving me problems. Also, with low-pressure loads in revolvers, sometimes the lube just doesn't flow well. Vaseline fixes that, too. Adding more paraffin oil does the same thing, but at 5% extra it lowers the melt point of the lube more than does Vaseline.

Carnauba wax: Up to 5%, max. This helps even out the variable friction properties of pitted and rough barrels, repels moisture on surfaces, and protects barrel steel. It also makes the lube harder, bumps the melt point slightly, and makes bores shiny if that is important to you. In some lubes, FWFL being one, it can in some guns (not all) help remedy cold flyer syndrome in certain picky barrels and at high pressure, but below about 40-50 degrees it doesn't help the cold-flyer tendency that lanolin imparts. I tend not to use it much, and if you do choose to try it, absolutely do not use more than 5%. 2-3% is a good additive rate.

Paraffin. This stuff changes everything, and you might not want it. Some say it makes the lube harder and easier to handle, but in the heat, it does just the opposite. What it DOES do is enable a lot colder range of accurate shooting with a pretty much equal loss at the top end. Unlike Vaseline, which is best used to modify the base lube for lower pressure applications and has little effect on the useful temperature range of the lube, paraffin can be added at 5-10% and be affected almost none by either very low or very high pressure, but will have a quite noticeable effect when shooting a given load at cooler or warmer temperatures. Notably, I found that when added at 10% it pretty much wrecks groups fired in 100+ degree weather and along with no other "extras" present, it will usually remove the cold flyer down to about freezing, maybe lower but didn't test lower.

Jojoba oil/wax. Dangerously slippery stuff. Can make or break the lube at the extreme top end of velocity and pressure. Will almost certainly break it below the freeze point of the stuff, which I don't recall but it will solidify in a cool room. So far I can always find a way to live without adding it. The best way I found to use it is cut out half the castor oil and replace it with jojoba.

That's it. With the five basic ingredients in the basic proportions Felix and the group that helped him established, you can do a LOT, and be assured the lube will give you great to excellent accuracy. You know the purpose of each, why they were chosen (trial and error has all been done, many times, with accuracy being the most important benchmark), and no other gee-whiz fancy cosmetic, industrial, or automotive chemicals were included in the final recipe. The other additives I listed are there if needed, and can be left out if they aren't.

The only reasons I don't still use FWFL for everything are I wanted/needed a lube that would withstand sustained 150F (hot car) without melting into the powder, and wanted to use the same lube year-round for hunting without changing ammunition, and that would require normalized function for first-shot-in-group from about 20F to at least 105F from a fouled barrel, something I haven't been able to make FWFL achieve. The 25% Ivory soap lubes with an equal part of blended high-temperature microwax, plasticized with a straight mineral oil to a soft consistency and boosted with a small amount of high-film-strength super-lube oil has been the only way I personally have been able to get there....so far.
 
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Tony

Active Member
Yes. Jacketed, custom, hand swaged bullets made with J4 jackets. I'm thinking about having a rifle built for shooting cast BR. I do not expect to achieve the same results. I have wondered about the possibilities. What about swaged lead bullets...how to lube them, etc. So far it's just a mental exercise. If I venture into cast BR I'll probably cast conventionally and lube more or less conventionally. However, I do not expect my cast bullets to be as uniform as my Watson, Berger or Bart's bullets.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
once you bump swage them they are as accurate as your cores would have been without the jackets.
you have to go to some fairly extreme measures when seeking perfection.
think about those Berger J-4 jackets, they are measured and weighed, the cores are swaged to remove the air and to get them to a consistent weight.
then you matched up the two.
if your expecting groups capable of the rifles capability's then your boolits need to be up to the task too.

now there are some different things to take into consideration with cast that most don't think about with jacketed.
[but it helps them shoot better too]
your initial fitment is the prime consideration, this fitment is when the boolits shape and the rifles throat jive up with minimal air spaces between the two.
this allows the projectile to enter the barrel with minimal damage before being accelerated to speed.
couple this properly with your powders pressure timing events and pressure rise rate and you have success.
changing the jump to lands and pressure timing can change your on paper results.

once you have a handle on that happening then you look to the lube to help.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
Yes, lube is way on down the list of things to fix. Even a very unsuitable lube will do surprisingly well if everything else is spot-on, and at that point you're mainly dealing with regular cyclic purge flyers or pretty obvious needle-track or big-bang type bullet hole patterns that are repeatable and directly related to the warming cycle of the barrel.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
Ian, in a post above you mention paraffin oil as an excellent plasticizer. What exactly is that? Is it kerosene or a form thereof? They sell a lamp oil here, is that it? Can you please point me in the right direction, I will try it?

Can you give a starting proportion for this when mixed with waxes? I understand that it gets adjusted for performance but what % is a minimum (thinking of cold)?
 

Ian

Notorious member
Without going into the molecular structure and various types of alkanes, I mean the heavier, longer-chain stuff that's still liquid at room temperature that is also called white mineral oil. Typically you'll find two different "weights" in the grocery store: Baby oil and laxative oil. The laxative oil is by far the heavier/more viscous of the two, and that's the stuff to use.

Depending on the original oil content of the wax and the viscosity of the oil added, it usually only takes a small amount of heavy mineral oil to plasticize to a nice consistency for bullet lube. You'll just have to experiment and see. Felix lube has a ratio between 1:8 and 1:9 of mineral oil to wax, but the castor oil is present, too, so using only mineral oil that proportion would be more like 1:6 oil to wax, and still it is a firm lube. Probably 20-30% oil to wax will be typical, again depending on the wax used and oil used.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
you gotta burn one or two then shoot for groups but it holds up for the rest of the day after that.

And this trait may just be the toughest one on the block to whup! I must have 40 lube formulas on the shelf that are great lubes except for this flaw...... And only a couple there that will put that first cold shot "minute of grouse eye"! And even then they won't do it from -50*F below to 115*F above.

Pete
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
quite often I think of working on a "repair lube" for the first shot.
one that just gets everything down the barrel on the first shot then going back to a normal lube for the rest of the string.
it would be that first shot load reduction thing only in an increased lube factor instead.
just somehow overcoming that extra friction from the bore condition.

that way instead of looking for the perfect lube we look for the repair to the CORE condition so that the first shot is in the group.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
quite often I think of working on a "repair lube" for the first shot.
one that just gets everything down the barrel on the first shot then going back to a normal lube for the rest of the string.
it would be that first shot load reduction thing only in an increased lube factor instead.
just somehow overcoming that extra friction from the bore condition.

that way instead of looking for the perfect lube we look for the repair to the CORE condition so that the first shot is in the group.

Woud save a lot of experimenting. So just blacken the case or otherwise identify the round to be chambered first?
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
yep mark the case or the boolit nose.
there would still be some experimenting to be done because the core condition still changes with temperature and time.
but if the percentage could be nailed down to a window of say 4% I think a first shot lube could be worked out to drop the first shot in the group.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
that's a work around too.
I think some time on the chronograph might answer the question just how that is working.

if we can't figure out the long term core thing we might need to explore other avenues.
 

JSH

Active Member
Wow, what a great thread. Thanks Tony for getting this started.

Ian, with all the test you ran I have a question.
Shooting IHMSA, I always shoot my 5 shoots prior to starting the match, unless the gun has been shot that day.
I have been using FWFL since I started making my own lube. My "bees wax" was the stuff out of Nevada, I forget the gent that had it. I had zero issues out of my TC's,BF's and XP guns. I got revolveritis and have had pretty good success, after transforming from SW to an FA.
The FA is a 357, using a 220 LBT and a case full of H110. Not a book load for sure. This was worked up by my good friend and mentor I got it from. I am still working on the 5000 cast, lubed,checked and sized bullets I got with it. The lube smells like alox is about all I can say, and he thought it was the old NRA formula but not sure.
I am pretty sure the pressures are up there, thus making your comment on the lube liquifing make sense to me.

Now enter the super Blackhawk that I got from the same gent.
Everything is as good as you would want from any revolver out to 150. After that I end up with a lot of unexplainable flyers. A couple of other wheel gun nuts have had the same thing happen on more than one occasion. Their guns, FA 44 and a DW 41 and my two supers in 44 and 357 max.
All four guns are using FWFL. Several different designs were tried with pretty much same results. In order to get a load that was capable on paper to take a ram over and good for shoot offs we either went to a heavier bullet or bumped up loads, both increasing pressures, which should take those flyers away?

I prefer not to tweak my FWFL, but I did make a batch of Bens Red. With your experience and testing of these lubes, is the Bens Red a good option to try in the revolvers? I guess this was the BR lube, made with beeswax and the red and sticky grease.

I have seen the crazy fliers come for no reason from my wheelguns from 32HR through the .480 Ruger.

Yes all the issues above could be me, could be a bad bullet with a void. I just see after reading on this thread too many occasions the same thing happens.
I just have to get this FA figured out this year. Toooooo many 39's lol.
Thanks
Sorry to some what hijack but it pertains to the loob thread.
Jeff
 

Ian

Notorious member
Me too, maybe it's transonic buffeting? I'd like to see what FWFL made per the recipe, with real bee spit does in all four revolvers at the same distance.
 

JSH

Active Member
The trans sonic idea had crossed our minds also. The one thing was that with jacketed we rarely saw this. Not that 40's were shot on a regular basis, lol.
Someone tested the torpedo wax from Nevada. Comments to the effect it was probably some of the best base wax ever used, is what I recall. There were some very large batches of FWFL made with it and sold.
About all I can tell you is what you observed, lube deposit is left in the mouth of a fired case, a beautiful lube star is left on the muzzle.
I did two single batches of FWFL and then mixed them together after both were done. I have cooked enough to know that some times simply doubling a batch doesn't come out as expected.

The other thing that got me scratching my head was the 357 max doing the same thing. Where as the 357 mag FA didn't show it,or nearly as bad. Granted two different guns and two different bullets, the 180 Sil. design is what I use in the max.
John Barsness calls them "rifle loonies", then we have "cast bullet loonies". Combining the two creates a new monster.
I cull my bullets pretty hard, I don't weigh them like khornet does, but I did for a couple of years. I saw no appreciable increase in accuracy, though I do think it has merit. 30's and 35's seem to be more forgiving from my findings. Anything smaller or larger in bore size don't seem to be AS forgiving. Just my casual observance.
I weighed and lubed some 535 Postell's for a buddy of mine a while back. Lube was same batch of FWFL as above. Groups were better but his POI was higher, loaded with BP out of his 45-70 Sharps. He had been using Lee Shavers moly lube.

I would imagine if we didn't have the occasional flyers we would all be bored and doing more domestic chores, lol.
Jeff
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Start out with NRA 50-50, LBT soft Blue, or one of the other "known good" commercial or
semi-commercial (White Label) lubes. Ben's Red and BLL are great choices. But even then, you
make a big mess and spend a bunch of time. Just buy some lube for $5-10 and go on to
the more important things for a beginner. Do I make up lubes, yes, a few times, when I am
in an experimenting mood. There are only so many hours in the day, probably best spent at
first on selecting good designs, casting good bullets and getting proper fit to the gun.

At some point, if you keep doing this, you MAY,eventually, decide that the lube is limiting you.
Don't start off overthinking and "solving" a non-existent problem for the beginner. As Ian points out,
the std lubes work for 99%. Use them until you become one of the 1%.

Like I used to tell beginners at IPSC, salivating over the hotshot of the club (a true national level competitor,
like top 10 in national championships for many years) and his $3000 custom compgun with red dot.
I said, buy a stock gun, with or add good sights and a good trigger and then spend the rest of that
money on reloading components. After you have burned $3000 in reloading components in good practice,
you will know what you need. Right now, you could swap guns with him and he would STILL whip your butt
into next week. It is not about getting a magic gun, it is about experience and learning skills.

Getting the magic lube is a waste if the other things - design, cast quality and fit, with alloy in there, too - aren't right.

Bill
 

Ian

Notorious member
Bill, agreed, but out of context. From my perspective, posts #12 and 13 addressed why not to start out with commercial lubes in this instance. Tony IS a 1%, starting out. LBT Blue Soft is the only commercial lube I could recommend for him outside of some of the boutique BR lubes.

For most everyone else, just about anything will work.