Objective ("NEEDLE"!) Measurement of Lube Hardness

[Grump]

Okay, I'm studying up and trying to find sources of small lots of microwaxes and other stuff that I still hope might bring a nice heat-resistant melt point in lieu of beeswax.

The tech sheets list an ASTM needle penetration test, which I now know involves a sharp needle, a total load of 100 grams, and letting the apparatus rest on the goo for 5 seconds or so. Depth of penetration in mm is the value derived, and it's standardized at somewhere like 77° F most of the time and 100° F less commonly. Sorry, I'm still not quick with Celsius equivalents.

Anyone have any ideas what our commonly-used lubes and lube components measure out to? Melt points and drop points are nice to know for preventing the liquid lube in the car trunk problem, but I'd also like to know beforehand whether a substitute by itself is guaranteed to need heat through a lubri-sizer...

For our application, the values probably need to be known at 60°, 70°, and 10° F increments up to probably 130°F. Start by measuring the stuff we know.

I can most likely rig up a suitable facsimile of the test device and check some Tac#1 and I think it's Ben's Red that one of the CB people sent me two years ago (might have been you, Ian--I never got the Three Amigos' names straight...).

As would be expected with such technical stuff, the protocol is rigorous. I haven't paid the $40+ or whatever to get the latest from ASTM, but I found the 1994 version and it requires controlling the temperature with a minimum time at the temp, a water bath to keep the sample there, and four pokes equally spaced not less than 12.7 mm (sound familiar???) apart...

 

[Ben]

ASTM needle penetration test , four pokes equally spaced not less than 12.7 mm ? ? ? ? ?

Gee, I've been doing it all wrong.
On the 2nd day of the lube cooling, I stick my finger into it.
The depth I'm able to plunge my finger tells me if the lube is too hard or too soft.

Ben

 

[Brad]

I find that I can predict a bunch about how well a lube will flow thru a sizer by how well it works in the fingers. Does it loosen up a bit when kneaded in the fingers? Does it feather well? By feather I mean does it easily smear between the fingers from a blob to a very fine film?
I don't know how well needle penetration will correlate to flow in a sizer.

And Ben, your method is also a part of what I do. And always wait for the next day, the lube changes a bit with time.

 

[Ben]

Yes it does Brad.
It is different on the 2nd day.

If I miss the ratios on Ben's Red when I'm mixing it , I simply use the simple fix below
and re-melt the lube :

If it needs to be Harder ---------More Bees Wax
If it needs to be Softer ----------More Lucas Red and Tacky

Simple " Kitchen Chemistry " and this system hasn't failed me in 8 years of use.

 

[KHornet]

I don't make my own lube, but if I did, would use Ben's system, cause it just seems logical. Technical things today sometimes get in the way of what I would consider logical.

 

[Grump]

Yeah, that's all fine when you have the stuff in your hands. But I want more than just a melt point to try to predict (better than a guess!) what wax product would be "Goldilocks" just right to replace beeswax. That starts by finding out what our known items measure out to...

 

[Brad]

Are you sure the "needle penetration" correlates to what you want to know?
The navy wax had properties beyond hardness.
This is like looking at BHn but ignoring how that BHn was achieved.

 

[Ian]

If needle penetration is anything less than 20mm you aren't going to be able to "feel" the wax because it's going to be rock-hard. Here's a tip: Look at oil content. Oil content (short molecule chains, under C18 or so) is what equates to wax softness. Waxes that have been mostly de-oiled (half a percent or less oil content) are all going to be harder than hammered cat chit. To soften any wax, add oil, it doesn't take much. I buy hard, pure waxes and modify them as I see fit with oils.

 

[Ian]

One more thing, if you want a standard of testing finished bullet lube, use a standard SHARP #2 pencil and find a total weight that's reasonable to add to the pencil to go about halfway up the "cone" of the pencil in typical lubes. We all have powder scales and most of us have pencil sharpeners which are pretty much standardized for taper. Measure penetration with calipers and make a standard, in ENGLISH measurements, please.

 

[Brad]

Anything we are likely to buy, at least "new manufacture", will be de-oiled as hell. They refine the stuff that well these days.

I agree with Ian, it is quite easy to modify a wax to get the feel we want. Vaseline, mineral oil, even ATF, can make a hard lube the softness that is desired.

 

[Brad]

English measurements? You don't like the Metric system? I know you love my grams and ml when I make a lube!

 

[Ian]

What, me be obstinate about something like that? Naaaaw.

I'll give you the Centigrade scale, though that one makes sense, which is a lot more than I can say for metric mass, volume, and distance measures.

 

[Brad]

I spend all day with weight and volume in metric system, they aren't too bad. I can convert pretty well mentally. Temp? No way.
Worst was trying to figure "petrol kilometerage" when we were in South Africa. I gave up.

 

[Pistolero]

Brad - The problem with the Euro gas mileage system is that it is the inverse of ours.
We say how many miles can you get from a standard quantity of gas (gallon) - bigger
number is better.
Europeans say how much fuel it takes to go 100 km - smaller is better. REALLY HUGE
PITA to convert.

I finally made a spreadsheet and used that. Basically, like you, I gave up for all practical
purposes there is no easy 'head calc' conversion. Driving both in Europe and SA, just learned a
few peg points, which I have forgotten.